Using "they/their" pronouns by default?

I was referred to as 'they/them' recently by a young sales assistant who knew my name but had not asked me what my pronouns are. It didn't really bother me but I thought it was odd because if you had to guess my pronouns you would be slightly bonkers not to guess she/her.

I understand the intention not to misgender people, but the reality is she ended up misgendering me. 🙃

I work at a University, and my male 30-yr old colleagues are already using they as default. We had to introduce a soon-to-join colleague in our newsletter - someone obviously male, with a male name, and my young colleague wanted to refer to the new colleague as they but I was able to over-rule and leave him as he. And another colleague referred to me as a "they" in email to a third party. Irritating, but I couldn't say anything as I obviously didn't put out my "preferred pronouns ".

If everyone in the world decided to identify as a they/them, we'd be right back where we started: humans, half of whom are biologically male and half of whom are biologically female.

A fair few of whom would be pissed-off non-binaries. I've posted this on a previous pronoun thread, but it's good enough to repeat:

Quite. I’m not particularly bothered about being called “they”, except I’m worried that people who don’t already know me will think I buy into this stuff.

Strangely, when she refers to our NB friend in her company she often slips up and calls her “she” (and then very conspicuously apologises). I don’t think the NB friend even cares, she refers to herself as “she” fgs!

I would be interested to know why she thinks it's less offensive to "they/them" someone who is a "she/her" than it is to "she/her" someone who is a "they/them".

Either getting someone's pronouns right matters or it doesn't.

If it does, she needs to respect everyone's pronouns, and by "they/them"-ing everyone she's deliberately misgendering most people.

If it doesn't, we should all be able to just use sex based pronouns like we have been doing since the dawn of time without worrying about making grown adults cry.

If everyone in the world decided to identify as a they/them, we'd be right back where we started: humans, half of whom are biologically male and half of whom are biologically female.

But the problem of generalising they/them is that it inevitably makes male the default.

This is really obvious in French, which has no gender neutral pronoun so they had to invent one. So "iel" was born; a cross between "il" and "elle". But possessive pronouns are gendered according to the object being possessed, not the person doing the possessing. So "his table" and "her table" are both "sa table" because table is feminine.

The main area where the gender of the person makes a difference is in verb conjugations, which have an extra "e" on the end if the person's gender is feminine. You either have an extra "e" or you don't. There's no way to split it down the middle. So "iel" defaults to the masculine and becomes grammatically indistinguishable from "il". This happens with third person plural pronouns too, all male groups are "ils", all female groups are "elles", and mixed groups (even if there are 20 women and one man) default to the masculine and become "ils". So it was inevitable really.

I've noticed this in broadcasting. It seems to be the default now, rather than saying her or his. For example, a history programme where the presenters show a skeleton that they (presenters, plural) then refer to with 'they, their' rather than he, his.

I've also noticed that when a female celebrity announces that she now goes by she/her or they/them simultaneously, the publication will refer to her by the they/them, not she/her, throughout the piece. It's like the writers can't wait to junk the boring old vanilla female pronouns and 'identity'.

But yes, if schools now use it as the default, will it fizzle out, or will the girls move over to he/himming?

What about the ones who identity as one or more of the what, 94 other ‘genders’?

Just kidding.

This is absolute bullshit. They should be telling the girls that outside of school they can love who they want, wear what they want, and do whatever they want (legally), and that being female shouldn’t stop this. I can’t find any potential positive conclusion from this approach whatever.

I resist!

Newyeardietstartstomorrow · Today 13:21This reply has been deleted
Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.
Absolutely no idea why I got deleted, I didn't say anything controversial, certainly not prejudiced or offensive

True. My NB mate has gone largely under the radar because of the friend that calls everyone they.

I move in very woke student circles and I have friend who uses they/them pronouns for everyone, including me, behind their backs, “just in case”. It has led to some confusion.

No she does not know my views on this. Lost cause!

Yep.

I had to turn off Instagram notifications because it calls everyone they/them.

‘Lady McFemale added to their story’

Even people who have filled out the pronoun section with a standard issue choice get they/themmed in the notification system (which shows how little Instagram care/what an empty virtue signal the pronoun section turned out to be!)

Some universities advise staff and students to use they/them for everyone unless they specifically tell you their pronouns. There was a Times article at the end of February about the university of Kent doing this.

I think it is a case of be careful what you wish for.

Queer theory and gender identity ideology are examples of extreme individualism. However that just isn’t how humanity works. We can’t ultimately control how others perceive us or talk about us. The adherents of this new belief system will not control it in the end and it will likely turn out to be a Pyrrhic Victory for them.

I can imagine that the desert mothers and fathers of early Christianity were likely not on board with what happened once the Roman Empire got hold of their belief system.

Once power and wealth take charge of any belief system the original adherents will lose control of it. The belief system then becomes a tool for controlling the populace rather than a tool for individual empowerment, enlightenment, improvement etc

No it won’t suit those identifying as non binary now but I can see that their philosophy and terminology suits states and corporations alike as well as the lazy tendencies of us human beings to want to simplify everything by using the fewest words and the fewest resources possible. We won’t be risking upsetting a person with histrionic personality disorder or inciting narcissistic rage when everyone is a “person” referred to as “they” which ironically leads to a lessening of individuality rather than the radical individualism currently associated with gender identity and “queerness”.

The OP demonstrates how schools are all gradually going down this route. My daughter’s school has been doing it for a while. My partner’s workplace does it, all the tech companies are doing it. I see many people doing it in writing and hear it in conversation using they for a known man or woman. So it actually wouldn’t surprise now that a single sex school would do it, after all the OP has already mentioned that some of the girls demand wrong sex pronouns so the school admin likely find it easier to apply the third person plural to everyone rather than risk upsetting children or parents particularly as personal choices may be subject to change at any moment.

Personally I take a stand against this by using correct sex singular pronouns out of earshot of anyone who it would offend and saying he or she rather than they when I am talking about unknown or unspecified individuals.

It's all a bit impersonal isn't it - the template excuse is there, but really, how genuine do congratulations feel when you know it's just your number whacked in a template, that they can't even be bothered to change to the right pronouns (and if there really are more they/thems at a girl's school, then that girls school has a huge social contagion problem)

I use they/them if I don't know someone, and especially if I can't guess from their name if they are male or female, but otherwise I'm gonna use sex-based pronouns if they are standing there with me or I know them, and a school that can't be bothered to get to know their students well enough to not use distancing pronouns is a bit of a red flag to me.

Absolutely right that social transition is not a neutral act.
When schools use non sexed pronouns they are promoting the ideology that may lead these girls to medically and surgically damaging their bodies.
These children need adults to stand up and teach them about reality, including that girls can't become boys. Those that are genuinely distressed about that need proper help with their mental health.
The rest of them would cope.
They are being seriously let down by adults who are not willing to set boundaries in the misguided belief they are being 'kind'.

It's pretty messed up in my view that you can send your female children to an 'all girls' school and end up with the perception at least that maybe it's not all girls.

You should send the Head a copy of the Interim Cass Report conclusion regarding social transition:

“Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.”

I guarantee there would be completely different outcomes if those kids who decided they were no longer girls were not allowed to continue in the school!

I’ve heard much older students complaining about the old us women who use they/their pronouns for everyone with blue hair. Apparently it’s lazy and doesn’t enable people to show their ( other pronouns are available) true identity.

I would agree with this if the school were mixed, but it's an all girls school so surely the default should be she/her?

I don't think it matters what sex the kids are; teachers are worried about how they identify, whether they are girls or boys, so it's just easier to write 'they', even in an all-girls school.

DD went to an all-girls school, and it was good about keeping she/her pronouns. Which I liked.

But in your school, if whole year groups are being called 'they', I'd guess that so many girls are identifying as NB that it's just easier to call them all 'they'. Just in case.

This is more and more common. A lot of mass comms stuff does it because they can just change out names without worrying about matching pronouns. Facebook does it, for example. My kids school report cards do because it is just a cut and paste job.

I've noticed my kids do it almost all the time too, without even thinking about it.

I think it kind of sounds like shit but I suspect it will become more and more common with digital communications being so important.

I have said it before on other threads but I suspect that the non binaries will win because it is easier for people to default to they/them. I see it everywhere now.

But how will the non binaries signal their specialness if they don’t get to demand awkward-to-use pronouns? Not sure they will view this as a win.