R4 Sunday religious sex workers

I am not talking about people working difficult jobs. I am talking about people are working jobs for less than minimum wage or which break safety rules- which is illegal. They are not necessarily coerced by force - in some cases they feel they don't have a choice/other alternatives or don't know that the employment situation is illegal. They are still being coerced. I don't think that this is exactly equivalent to sex work. But it is much closer than the examples you give.

Incidentally the "man cleaning the streets through the night in all weather conditions" should be earning a fair wage. uk.talent.com/salary?job=Street+Cleaner And the job is probably tough but I guess most of them would choose it over having anal sex with up to 20 men a day.

“The Sex Work Research Hub (a consortium of academics based at the Universities of Durham and Leeds) cited research which estimates that women comprise just over 80% of indoor sex workers, with more than 17% male and just over 2% transgender.”

That’s from the House of Commons Home Affairs Committee report on Prostitution, third report, 2016-17 session. The difference between thise figures and your ad hoc research on vivastreet is probably explained by male and female prostitutes having different types of punters and so preferring different websites.

The 20% figure was from a BBC article.

@Anactor

Methinks you've got your statistics wrong. It's probably more like 2%. I mean you can just go on to websites like vivastreet and count how many sws in any one are are women vs men.

The overwhelming majority of sws are women, and almost all buyers are men.

And just as I am sure you agree that the coercion of men into these hard labour work gangs is wrong and the people doing it are exploitative and should be punished - so should the Johns and pimps exploiting women.

Oh I completely agree with this. Anyone who coerces someone else into doing anything, be it regular work or sex work, should have the full force of the law come down on them.

I'm not for one moment pretending that most sws have the choice of either being eg a highly paid lawyer or an escort. It's quite clear in most cases we're talking about women who have limited choices. It would be either working long and hard hours in min wage or fewer and more flexible hours as a sw, but with the risks and caveats I mentioned above.

Still, the fact that poor people exist and by definition their choices are limited, is not the same as actual coercion.

The reality of life is that from the moment we are born, unless someone provides food, clothing and shelter, we wouldn't survive. That is just reality. It's a sad state of affairs when people have to make difficult choices in order to survive, but you can't compare that to real slaves.

The woman doing sw is no more coerced than the man cleaning the streets through the night in all weather conditions. Which is to say they're both doing shitty jobs* in order to survive. But there's no coercion involved.

*each one is shitty in their own way. Before you jump down my throat I'm not saying street cleaning is exactly like sw.

“One only has to look at men who are poor, for whom sw isn't an option,”

How to say you don’t know anything about the subject without saying you don’t know anything about the subject…

20% of sex workers are men.

In addition, surveys show that the majority of sex workers have experienced coercion- usually a partner or relative. If you think that the ‘vast majority’ of sex workers go into it because they need the money, you are being naive. In over 50% of cases, it’s because someone else wants the money.

sorry that was for @Crutcher

"One only has to look at men who are poor, for whom sw isn't an option, to realise that other options of eking out a living (pittance) do exist."

Well, in many (not all before you strawman me) cases men who are both very poor and have addictions end up pimping out their girlfriends so same difference.
Apart from that many vulnerable (economically, socially) men do end up coerced into very low paid (as in illegal below minimum wage) hard labour jobs. These are better than sex work but still bad. Of course because they are hard labour women are less likely to have a choice to do it.**
Or men end up on the streets - walk through any city and see how many are out sleeping rough. There are women there too but less - its very dangerous for women on the streets. For women it can be a choice between being physically and sexually assaulted while living rough or be a prostitute and you are still being sexually assaulted.
Or men do sex work themselves (for other men). Or they do crime.

**And just as I am sure you agree that the coercion of men into these hard labour work gangs is wrong and the people doing it are exploitative and should be punished - so should the Johns and pimps exploiting women. Or are you the sort of person who pays 3 quid for a carwash by some miserable looking eastern European men and drives away feeling all smug that you got a good deal?

I didn't bring so called high class escorts into the equation at all. The vast majority of sws are in it because they need the money. They're poor, and without money they would starve.

This is where hard choices comes in. These poor women can either try to find low paying jobs (akin to what men in this position would do), or go for the relatively high paying sw, but which comes at a cost of higher risk of physical danger (and some would argue also soul destroying).

As I said, it's a hard choice, and one I'm thankful I don't need to make. But ultimately it is a choice. One only has to look at men who are poor, for whom sw isn't an option, to realise that other options of eking out a living (pittance) do exist.

I am not a philosopher but I think there are important philosophical arguments regarding when a choice really is a choice and when is not.

Nods loudly

If you believe that your life is in danger if you don't do something, is that free choice?

I clearly wrote these are people making difficult choices. However, ultimately, they're doing it by choice.

….. “ultimately”.

I am not a philosopher but I think there are important philosophical arguments regarding when a choice really is a choice and when is not.

@Crutcher I don't have the more detailed information to hand nor the will to go find it right now (my bad I know) but I hope somebody else will be along with it.

I believe that you're extremely wrong about the proportion of sex workers in the UK who are living in modern slavery. I don't deny that there are high class escorts who charge £££ and think of themselves as "empowered women" (quotation marks because I don't believe that sex work is ever consensual but that's a different point), but I believe that for every one of those there are several women who have either been manipulated into sex work by drugs/domestic abuse/other, or who have simply been trafficked to the UK for the purpose of sex work.

Nor do I agree that the majority of sex work in the UK is highly paid. There are plenty of women on the streets if you know the right postcodes who are offering £15 blow jobs.

Of course we will never know accurate figures because it's an illegal industry, and those who traffic women for sex aren't exactly declaring it on anybody's census. The high class escorts are willing to talk about how great and empowering it is, and those who are trafficked aren't, or are too afraid to give an accurate report of reality.

Read this for a glimpse of reality. It does not include the religious element and the trans part is nit important for this discussion, but everyone who thinks sec work is work should read it. (I first saw it on another thread - thank you to who ever posted it.)

forthvalleyfeminists.com/dr-em-porn-culture-and-transgenderism/

Please don't misquote me. I didn't say anything about 'happy' hookers. On the contrary, I clearly wrote these are people making difficult choices. However, ultimately, they're doing it by choice.

You're talking utter horse shit, love. I'm sure it's all very lovely in your world of Happy Hookers and empowered cam girls, but down at the sharp end it is NOT by choice.

PonyPatter44 · Today 20:00

^Crutcher · Today 19:44
Writing this cheapens the experience of actual victims. Whatever your view is of sex work, those engaging in it do so of their own free will.^

there may be some women going into sex work of their own free will, but the majority are trafficked and/ or addicted women, because they have minimal choice in the matter.

Agreed, and many may have been abused in their earlier life.

@ThereIbledit

It would help if you were a bit more specific.

@PonyPatter44

The evidence is not in your favour. The rare few sex workers in the UK are actually trafficked or forced. Most do it by choice.

By that I mean they need money and sw is highly paid and flexible hours. Obviously there are no rich women who do sw for the fun of it, but to compare people making hard choices to people actually being tortured or enslaved, is an insult to real victims.

I'm not really sure what she's attempting with her PhD. The notion that there's anything new about sex workers being religious is naive at best. The fact that some of them incorporate their religion into their sex work to make money, well that's just looking at another kink and a specific way for the women using it to make more money.

She states that all the women she spoke to were consenting sex workers, blah and then says that she was a bit worried about Lilly:

"Lilly told me that sex work provides her with greater opportunities to earn more compared to other jobs available to her. I did feel concerned that Lilly, at times, was made to feel scared by her clients. But it was also clear to me that, for Lilly, these negative experiences do not outweigh the positive benefits she says she gains from being an escort."

The benefit Lilly gains from being a sex worker is that it's the only way she can earn enough money to live. She recites prayers in her head when she is scared of a client. That is the limit of the overlap of religion and sex work for her. That is tenuous at best.

The author is at best naive at worst so caught up in her own idea of what would make a great semi-woke PhD that her ignorance borders on wilful. Actually, what am I talking about with semi-woke? I forgot the trans Norse pagan mostly because my eyes rolled far back in my head when I read it so fucking woeful was it. At no point is there any consideration that sex work is inherently dangerous and not something to speak about so bloody blithely.

@Crutcher I'm REALLY struggling with understanding how you can be on a female-centred forum in the feminism section and make a statement like that. 😕

@ExiledElsie "It strikes me as extremely disrespectful of religions to suggest women can and should earn more money for sex acts dressed in religious clothing."

I haven't read the article but did listen to the programme and was baffled by that. I can sort of understand profiting by it if you're not a member of the religion yourself and the punters like it. But if you claim to be a practising member of a religion that condemns prostitution, it's utterly bizarre.

I feel sick. That's the second complaint I'll be sending to the BBC in a week then. Strongly encourage others to do the same.

@ExiledElsie Money, sex and religion exist in a very awkward space to each other as it is. This feels like EVERYTHING is up for commodification and the free market - bodies, souls (if they exist), ones deepest beliefs and its just uurghh.

Great topic for a PhD though, was it not?

@Crutcher , there may be some women going into sex work of their own free will, but the majority are trafficked and/ or addicted women, because they have minimal choice in the matter.