R4 Sunday religious sex workers

It's Not faux outrage, @Crutcher . It's genuine anger that a punter thinks he can tell me how to feel. I'm appalled.

Paying to use a woman's body for sex is rape. It's dehumanising and it's disgusting.

Some women make the choice to do sex work.

No one has an issue with the women here. As far as I'm concerned they are sisters.

I have an issue with the men who have sex with them, not knowing (or asking) if they are trafficked and not caring that the 'consent' is bought. People who want to normalise prostitution always focus on the women. It's the punters I think are foul arseholes.

I couldn't (and haven't when the opportunity has been there) have paid sex with someone who wouldn't be having sex with me for free. Because it's repulsive. And if the men don't see this, they are repulsive.

Your faux outrage, even with your 'fucking' does nothing for your argument. Especially as you've essentially got it backwards.

You can compare your trauma to whatever you want. I couldn't care less. What I find offensive is when people compare the experience of willingly doing sex work to actual rape.

And true, @MrsTerryPratchett my offense is no more important than anyone else's. But I will continue to call out what I find offensive and outrageous, and you can do the same.

@ThereIbledit , I'm not talking about trafficked sws, who are by definition being raped. Though there are far fewer than some try to pretend. Read Sex, Lies & Statistics by Brooke Magnanti for some real data.

There are many poor people in this country. And there will always be poor people. That is the nature of reality. Most poor people find minimum wage jobs where they have to work for many hours. Some women make the choice to do sex work. Usually it's because they can make much more than in a min wage job for far fewer hours.

Obviously that isn't a nice position to be in, when you have to make a choice between survival drudgery or survival sex. But it's still a choice. They choose one shitty option over the other, but they choose.

They sell their services for money, and of course consent can be bought. As I made the argument earlier in this thread, if consent can't be bought, all work would be slavery. What's more, if consent can only be given freely without any gain, anytime a woman had sex with any kind of ulterior motive, she would essentially be raped. A claim that is nonsensical and offensive.

To come and compare a sw by choice to someone whose choice was stolen from her by a rapist or molester, is highly offensive. At least it is to me. And I'll call out offensive comparisons when I see them.

i believe in the Nordic model for this.

no criminal or civil responsibility for the women, punters will get a criminal record and likely jail, especially if they realised that the woman was vulnerable.

How dare you tell me what I'm allowed to compare my trauma with? Or how to understand rape? How fucking dare you.

Go and read a book. Rachel Moran's 'Paid For' would be good start. Learn something.

@Crutcher

The entire thrust of my argument was that you can't conflate sws who do so by (albeit limited) choice, with actual victims of coercion, torture or rape. By doing so you just cheapen the experiences of bona fide victims.

There's plenty of research that shows the vast majority of sws are not trafficked against their will. While the possibility always exists (as it does with various other industries), it is in no way the norm.

No. Your argument was that

"Whatever your view is of sex work, those engaging in it do so of their own free will."

You requested and I have provided quite a bit of referenced evidence that there are a great many sex workers in the UK and internationally who are doing it through modern slavery and other methods of coercion.

You also said this in reply to somebody else:

The evidence is not in your favour. The rare few sex workers in the UK are actually trafficked or forced. Most do it by choice.

Since I have provided sources to back up my argument, please can you now provide evidence to substantiate your claim(s) that there is evidence that the vast majority of sex workers in the UK are not trafficked, forced or victims of coercion?

@Crutcher
That's like saying, "I'm [insert minority] and I don't find that offensive."
You might not find it offensive but I do. There is no comparison between the experience of someone who took on a shitty job of her own free will, with someone who was penetrated against her will. No comparison.

I'm really not sure that "work" that carries no statutory employment rights, where the purchase of the services you are offering is illegal, and which has a high risk of rape (even by your definition) and assault can be classed as a job, even a shitty job.

If consent is purchased, it is not true consent.

And I find your attitude offensive. 🤷‍♀️ We could go around all day, but you cannot say something is offensive to all rape victims when I am a rape victim and am not offended. You don’t get to decide what is offensive to me.

@MrsTerryPratchett

Yes, indeed, that goes without saying.

You might not find it offensive but I do. There is no comparison between the experience of someone who took on a shitty job of her own free will, with someone who was penetrated against her will. No comparison.

And I find the idea of conditional, negotiable consent offensive.

What makes your offence more important than mine? After all, if I'm right the risk is traumatised women. If you're right, men will have to wank a little more. Simple cost:benefit analysis.

@risefromyourgrave @beastlyslumber

That's like saying, "I'm [insert minority] and I don't find that offensive."

You might not find it offensive but I do. There is no comparison between the experience of someone who took on a shitty job of her own free will, with someone who was penetrated against her will. No comparison.

I think it's worth specifying, male prostitution when the punters are female. Because male prostitution exists everywhere where the punters are male. Frequently underage and just as vile and full of trafficking as when it's girls. It's massively widespread. I've worked with young male victims in the UK.

I saw male prostitution in Mexico many years ago and thought it was horribly degrading for the men.

I saw it in Turkey, where I lived for a while. The women paying for younger men (not always younger!) fully believed they were in a real relationship and they were just giving/sending money to help out. The men were often abusive and controlling of the women, sexually, emotionally and financially abusing them. It was really messed up, tbh. I did come across a few women who knew fine well it was a financial transaction and they were the punters - they were exploiting those men and it was every bit as gross as it would be if the sexes were reversed.

No. This is not correct.

Yes, I've also been a victim of several rapes and I don't find it offensive either.

You are paying to use a woman's body. She has no means to prevent you from doing so and/or she feels she has no choice. I'd call that rape, and I'd call punters rapists.

I am a two times rape victim, and I don’t find it offensive at all. Prostitution is 99.9% coercion, which I, and many others, class as rape.

All prostitution does is teach men that they can get anything they want if they pay enough.

It isn't really equivalent to female prostitution in some ways. But I think that there needs to be more awareness around this type of sex work.

The power and financial imbalance made me very uncomfortable in Uganda. I know my mum saw it in Ghana and was similarly repulsed. Let's be honest though, it is different to prostitution destinations for men like Thailand where the women (and sometimes boys) are trafficked, deliberately addicted by pimps and start under-age as children. What I saw of it in Africa, the men were certainly 20+ not teens or younger.

Absolutely not. And as I said, I find this extremely offensive to actual rape victims.

People who are poor and make a choice to enter the oldest profession are doing so by choice. Albeit limited choice, and to a degree pushed into it by their circumstances, but it's a choice nonetheless.

There are always other options, as is evidenced by the millions of people slogging away in min wage jobs. Sw pays much more, but of course the risks are higher.

Whether you choose to engage the services of a sw and what you think of someone who does, is another matter entirely. But to call it rape is an insult to every woman who's actually been raped.

Yeah, it's not always so easy to see who is being most exploited in those situations. Sometimes women think they are in genuine relationships and that they are in love. I've heard of women being raped and assaulted in these situations too. I don't think women always realise they are paying for sex/a relationship. They do get genuinely taken in by the scam and often suffer hugely because of it.

It isn't really equivalent to female prostitution in some ways. But I think that there needs to be more awareness around this type of sex work.

I get the impression male prostitution like that and is done under the umbrella/appearance of holiday romances/casual relationships in which "gifts" and sometimes cash are given at the man's request/urging. Sometimes they continue it when the woman returns home, ongoing; with requests for more "help".

It often tends to be dressed up as a relationship of sorts, rather than a set amount for whatever sex act or one hour or one night or whatever.

It's because the men are young and fit and virile.

It's common (though more in the form of buying them stuff they want than straight cash) in Turkey, and as the poster above mentioned, very common in the Carribbean.

I was unaware of it in sub Saharan Africa.

You really do learn something new everyday....😅interested in understanding why women in these parts of the world are paying for sex?! I mean I know it happens in the UK but it's more usual I suspect for men to pay than women....