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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Residential trips

236 replies

JustFuckOffPlease · 18/03/2023 11:52

Name changed for this.
I knew it was only a matter of time.

I teach in a secondary school and we've so far not experienced too many challenges to our single sex provisions despite having increasing numbers of teens (mostly girls) that socially transition for a short period.

I'm running a week's residential course (tied to my subject) for 14 yr olds and one biological male who identifies as a girl has requested that they share with their friends. Girls. I responded before half term to this request and said that they must share with friends of the same biological sex. It went very quiet for weeks, but yesterday afternoon, parents have emailed me, cc'ing the Head to express their dissatisfaction that their child can't share with their female friends.

The accommodation we use are dormitories - minimum of 4 sharing, maximum of 8. I've emailed the hostel (who frequently run school trips) to see what their policy is on these matters so I'll hopefully hear on Monday.

We have quite a strong LGBT staff body and an SLT that will tick all the boxes to be seen to be doing the 'right thing'.

I'm anticipating being told that I need to listen to these parents who are insisting that I let their DC share and to not be discriminated against.

What are my options here? There's 4 staff attending this trip, 2 male 2 female. I organise it and I do NOT agree with biological males sharing a bedroom and changing rooms with biological females, no matter what feelings they have.

OP posts:
Fenella123 · 18/03/2023 16:12

Ok so even if we assume that the young biological male here is as modest and pure as the driven snow ...
Next year, a young man says he is trans and happily comes to school in a skirt for a month with the sole aim of sharing a room with his girlfriend on the residential. The precedent has already been set - he can share with the bio girls.
The other girls in the room don't feel able to voice any discomfort for fear of being called transphobic; and lo! soon you have a pregnant teenager.

If there exists a solution for distinguishing, in a legally defensible and infallible manner, between the hypothetical #1 and #2 cases, preserving good safeguarding principles, I am sure OP would be all ears.

And the separation of the sexes also protects young men from allegations of wrong-doing. We wouldn't like to see any teen tiff among friends escalating to accusations of inappropriate behaviour, would we?

So, the above, off the top of my head, are a few thoughts on possible ways to approach this. While thinking rather more blunt opinions;)

JustFuckOffPlease · 18/03/2023 16:08

Thanks everyone. You all make such valid points.

My Head is a good individual but is pursuing every 'badge', award and label going at the moment, so I've no doubt that they've not truly thought this through, but just looked at things on a superficial level in order to be a pioneering school. I know that at least one of their deputies are pro-validating and happy to get the male trans pupil into female changing rooms if they wish - I usually like and work well with this member of staff but nothing will come in the way of me standing my ground on this.

I won't back down.

OP posts:
artant · 18/03/2023 16:03

As well as the risk assessment which should highlight issues around, for example, the risk of pregnancy, I wonder whether there’s anything in the school’s insurance that would be invalidated by mixed-sex dorms? (Not something I’ve ever looked into, admittedly.)

Ingenieur · 18/03/2023 15:44

AmuseBish · 18/03/2023 13:40

"But we are not discriminating. The policy applies to all males and is inclusive of all genders."
If they deny the child is male then that's another issue... although that would obviously be erasing the existence of a trans person.

Nobody is denying that this person exists, OP just disagrees with a claim that identifying with the stereotypes of another gender changes your sex.

NCTDN · 18/03/2023 15:30

I was with y6 pupils on a school residential this week and wondered exactly your situation.

Stepuptowardsinfinity · 18/03/2023 15:13

It would be worth joining the Free Speech Union. They are excellent on the law around these sorts of things and their case workers would be able to advise.

HagoftheNorth · 18/03/2023 15:13

If this child gets child’s own room then, imo, they are already getting a pretty special deal compared with everyone else.
Go OP, as you say, focus on the risk, culpability and potential harms & legal redress. If you end up gardening because you are personally attacked for raising this, I’ll definitely support you!
Please record as much as you can of how the debate goes, that could help others in your situation later on. Meanwhile, do eg safer schools alliance have anything which can help you?

MamaMoon16 · 18/03/2023 15:06

justgotosleepffs · 18/03/2023 13:39

If OP is running the trip, it is her call.

OP, Totally reasonable to make it clear to the school that this is line on the sand for you. If they want to allow mixed-sex sleeping arrangements then they will need to find someone else run the trip and attend in your place.

Of course OP isn’t going to have to do something they don’t want to or feel comfortable with, but whether the child sleeps with the girls (or more likely, in a separate room on their own) isn’t a decision that the OP is going to need to make in isolation. It has to be escalated.

Grammarnut · 18/03/2023 15:03

He's not a DC he's a DS.

Grammarnut · 18/03/2023 14:56

GrabbyGabby · 18/03/2023 11:58

That is a tough one and the answer depends on how much heat you are willing to take. Personally i would not be responsible for a trip involving teenagers and mixed sex sleeping arrangements. It is not compatible with safeguarding. If this arrangment is what happens then i dont think you have much option but to bow out.

You could bow out, and not state this as your reason.

But any which way, you will take some heat for this.

If she bows out she should say why, emphasising safeguarding and the privacy, dignity etc. of the girls. If she hides her reason, then no-one gets the point, including the incredibly stupid parents. Perhaps they would like a biological male of 14 in the showers, the dormitory etc. with their daughter? Ask them.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/03/2023 14:33

lifeturnsonadime · 18/03/2023 14:03

I'm not. I've come across it IRL.

All that matters is their poor boy child.

Who cares which girl gets thrown under the bus as a result. They literally do not care.

Sadly this is likely to be the case. Every other child and adult is responsible for validating this child, regardless of any risk or the rights and wishes of unconsenting others.
Until it is established that girls and women are not on this earth to validate the demands of sad or mentally unwell boys and men, this will continue to happen.

lifeturnsonadime · 18/03/2023 14:03

Magenta82 · 18/03/2023 13:38

This is crazy, I know people can be selfish, but I'm amazed that the patents of this boy would put his wants over the safety and comfort of the girls.

I'm not. I've come across it IRL.

All that matters is their poor boy child.

Who cares which girl gets thrown under the bus as a result. They literally do not care.

StephanieSuperpowers · 18/03/2023 13:44

I would say that by trying to push into somewhere they're not supposed to be, they don't have to do anything further to have done something wrong.

AmuseBish · 18/03/2023 13:41

Magenta82 · 18/03/2023 13:38

This is crazy, I know people can be selfish, but I'm amazed that the patents of this boy would put his wants over the safety and comfort of the girls.

Presumably they think - likely correctly - that the boy would never do anything 'wrong'.
But that is irrelevant to safeguarding and risk assessment.

latetothefisting · 18/03/2023 13:40

viques · 18/03/2023 12:49

Don’t do this. It is not up to children to monitor safeguarding rules. It is up to responsible adults to ensure that safeguarding guidelines are both secure and unequivocal.

Was just going to say this
It's an issue on many levels

  1. if you go back to the trans child's parents and say "at least one of the girls or their parents have said they don't want to share with your child" it's likely they'll start questioning the friends, trying to work out who said it and causing further upset

  2. the girls might very well be happy to share with their friend, but they could also be equally happy to share with their (non trans) boyfriends if they were allowed - that's why teenagers don't get to choose and adults make safeguarding decisions for them!

  3. despite what others might "want" the school/hostal are the ones at risk if they overrule safeguarding decisions and something goes wrong. If you ran a theme park you wouldn't let a child who didn't meet the height restrictions for a ride on just because they/their parents said they were happy to risk it, or serve alcohol to a minor if you ran a bar etc.

AmuseBish · 18/03/2023 13:40

"But we are not discriminating. The policy applies to all males and is inclusive of all genders."
If they deny the child is male then that's another issue... although that would obviously be erasing the existence of a trans person.

justgotosleepffs · 18/03/2023 13:39

MamaMoon16 · 18/03/2023 12:02

I don’t think this is your call. I’d put it to SMT/DSL teams.

If OP is running the trip, it is her call.

OP, Totally reasonable to make it clear to the school that this is line on the sand for you. If they want to allow mixed-sex sleeping arrangements then they will need to find someone else run the trip and attend in your place.

Magenta82 · 18/03/2023 13:38

This is crazy, I know people can be selfish, but I'm amazed that the patents of this boy would put his wants over the safety and comfort of the girls.

Wellies54 · 18/03/2023 13:30

The ridiculous thing is that because the hostel and slt may not back you up, the parents will sense an opportunity to push for their male child sharing with girls (they probably don't have the backbone to stand up to all the whining and tantrumming they'll get at home.) There should be a united front to uphold safe guarding from all parties and you should absolutely not be put in this position.

Just remember that you are in the right. I wonder how the slt will feel if they are the ones having to explain to a girl's parents how she became pregnant on the school trip?

AmuseBish · 18/03/2023 13:29

The first question anyone needs to think about re safeguarding is, what is the worst possible outcome and what are we doing to prevent that?

You can't be breaking that just because someone really really wants you to. Apart from physical risk, the male is also putting themself at risk of allegations.

Forester1 · 18/03/2023 13:25

I’m glad you’re not letting this go. Good luck.

ChocSaltyBalls · 18/03/2023 13:12

AlisonDonut · 18/03/2023 12:18

How is 'not sleeping in the same room as girls' discrimination?

Exactly. It isn’t.

the child is legally male so his comparator is another male without the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. That male wouldn’t be allowed to share with female children either. Hence, no less favourable treatment, and no discrimination

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/03/2023 13:12

I worked in an educational establishment as a PA about 15 years ago and I had to organise a trip abroad once which wasn't even overnight stay. The rules about sex segregation were so strict and these were 16 and 17 year olds.

Because there were two students travelling together of different sexes to meet up with the larger group, by the safeguarding rules they had to have a teacher to chaperone, even just on the train.

nilsmousehammer · 18/03/2023 13:11

Unfortunately once someone gets involved who is passionate about enforcing your proving their child's identity by hurling aside safeguarding and showing their child matters more than anything and anyone else does, and cannot do reasonability or balancing of need?

Yes. It's fucked.

This is sadly why this whole agenda will eventually be overturned. With give and take it could be perfectly happily accommodated.

StephanieSuperpowers · 18/03/2023 13:08

Whatever this trip is, it can't be worth doing. I know you said pulling out isn't an option, but I would not want to be a part of anything involving this family. Mum sounds like a nightmare and I wouldn't trust her to accept what safeguarding says.