Residential trips

Can you stop the passive attack and go on and on? Does this make you feel more superior and more intelligent? 😂There are people accusing me for derailing the post...

Return2thebasic · Today 12:15

. . . I don't want to provide any data, because I'm not interested in digging into it - it hurts my mental health. . . .

A brilliant point, I suggest you use this in every exam, essay, job interview or competence test you have to do for the rest of your life.

Re the 'reasonable adjustments' bit -

Yes, it is specific to disability, it was hoovered up into the Equality Act from what was previously the Disability Discrimination Act, and the wording came with it.

It is however known wording and approach to balancing needs as is often needed in inclusion situations for disabled people, and can be a useful way to look at what is possible, and then what of those possibilities is reasonable, when proving that you have not acted in a discriminatory manner.

I might for example argue that to ask a male child who dresses and presents as a girl and has done for years to share a dormitory where they will stand out among other boys and be upset at being treated and grouped with boys, may be a distressing thing for this particular child (varied from child to child) and therefore a reasonable adjustment is to offer a separate sleeping space that is either a space of their own unshared or shared with another same sexed trans child from the group.

I make no comment in that on how kind it is to support a child in the belief that they are not sexed and that their sex can change because they will constantly run up against the distress of reality and have been left unprepared and unsupported in dealing with this. Or go into the large number of issues of the Cass report and social transition not being harmless: I won't derail the thread. But that is a reasonable adjustment that respects the child's expressed feelings and identity that they do not want to be grouped with their sex AND maintains that creating mixed sex accommodation is not possible or reasonable and cannot happen.

I don't feel having a student in a private room greatly increases this risk. That can happen on any trip and doesn't need a private room - students can easily exchange rooms in the middle of the night, or sneak out of their rooms into the public bathrooms etc. Also, we've had students in the past who have had private room for other reasons (e.g. medical issues, or sleep disturbance issues).I've been a teacher for 15 years and know full well what can happen, and how to take steps to prevent it.

The issue here is not being willing to force students (e.g. the boys, in this case) to share a room with someone they are uncomfortable with.

I agree that safeguarding and protecting other children's equality of consideration is absolutely not 'hostility' as some random prejudice against transness.

It is not the being trans that is the problem: it is that the desire is to matter more than others by having their normal needs, policies, protections, set aside in sacrifice to the person with the trans word involved. That is the part that is not ok. It is no problem to equally respect and meet needs, but the idea that it is just 'hostility' to refuse to subordinate others and put them at risk for a trans person is ridiculous manipulation. And yes, we've all been fed these marketing strategies and language tricks for a very, very long time, it's hard to challenge them and weed them out.

I can be entirely 'un hostile' to a trans person and retain normal boundaries and expectations of mutual respect between us. If my refusal to surrender those boundaries and accept less so that they can have more than their fair share unreciprocated is 'hostile' then that word has gained a very odd meaning. It is not my behaviour in this situation that is unacceptable. Nice people do not pressure others to stop saying no and do things they don't want to do or feel comfortable doing.

@amnm what happens next year when you have a boy willing to pay for a private room (so he can seek his Girlfriend in there).

We had this on a trip - a trans boy refused to share with girls and claimed they were entitled to share with the boys. We refused point blank. We even had some boys asking us if they would have to share a room with this child, and making it clear they were not willing to.
We ended up telling the child and their parents that they could share with girls, or pay extra for a private room. They choose the latter option.

Not a joke. So you agree that mixed-sex is riskier?
Just wasn't clear as you seemed to be saying that societal factors were relevant to the OP's safeguarding situation.

Do you want to go through previous posts to find my stance or I need to do it myself to prove my innocence in front of you as a judge? Is this a joke?

Are posts now only limited to the mentioned subject itself and any other general comments are not allowed now? Can you give me a link for the new policy?

My stance was clear in every post - women's/ girl's/ children's right should not be compromised.

The only question in this situation - in this thread, which is what we are discussing and trying not to be derailed - is whether mixed-sex sleeping accommodation for teenagers at school is more, or less, risky in terms of safeguarding than single-sex. Do you have an opinion on this?

It sounds like you think "trans" means "people who want to be the opposite sex". This was the old definition, and many of us had sympathy for such people.

Now it means that you are literally a man or a woman if you have a certain type of feeling, which I believe is not true and not workable in society in terms of law and policy.

Safeguarding is not 'hostility', and its wrong to refer to it as such.

Why are we thinking of giving these children the power here? Personally I have every sympathy for those struggling with any problems or issues, but I really don’t think we should be talking about trans children, as I really don’t think there is such a thing and we should be clear that while they should feel comfortable in expressing themselves, it should not be at the expense of others discomfort. If only children with disabilities had the power to make the environment around them more comfortable.

Sorry, that's really just a general deduction with no evidence. Personal opinion if you want to see it that way. I don't deny it.

I just think I don't want any of my loved ones be in their position which can tell some basic information.

Even gays and lesbian are not as discriminated as now than like decades ago. But the memory as a society is still fresh.

The no. of trans is even less in a society (very rare even 10 years ago?). Their situation is even more radical opposing to what's perceived as "natural". It's only normal for hostility to exist against them.

Just that really.

Because you didnt say trans people are vulnerable you said that trans people are "the most vulnerable" as in more vulnerable than anyone else, you need to back this up.

No one is arguing that trans people have no vulnerabilities, but we do dispute the evidence free claim that they are worse off than anyone else.

I don't understand why can't the girls be vulnerable and the trans in general are vulnerable too? Minorities are always at risk of unfair treatment, unless you have power - that's what the lobbying groups are pushing for.

You can say I'm manipulating as it's your right of free speech, but it doesn't make your judgement right.

I don't want to provide any data, because I'm not interested in digging into it - it hurts my mental health. And there are things called common sense. But obviously you can deny it and hold your one sided opinions firmly. I can't change that either.

Nothing like what we say here would make either you more right or me more right. No need to attack each other using words like "manipulation", because I have no interest in doing that.

As the leader of the group, you will be responsible if anything goes wrong. Given the obvious safeguarding problems here, if I were you, I'd cancel.

@GottoHandit
You can only assume that the parents would be up in arms giving it - we would never allow them to be in the bedroom alone.

And it would never go to court unless it was in an attempt to prove rape

@Return2thebasic You stated that trans people are in a position of unique vulnerability, and I disagree that there is any evidence at all to support this, and I note in your response that you have not provided anything to back up your claim. A complete deflection.

This particular child has the theoretical potential to be bullied for identifying as the opposite sex, but the sleeping arrangements don't affect this one way or the other. Indeed, who is to say that the girls wouldn't equally bully the child? Unless your concern is that the other boys will commit corrective rape against the trans identifying boy, in which case the child is as vulnerable as any other boy.

As we've seen on this thread and in the news, girls are in fact uniquely vulnerable as a group to the effects of male behaviour which is why single sex spaces exist in the first place.

It isn't right to try to emotionally manipulate the argument by pretending trans identifying people are more vulnerable, when the opposite is true in our current society.

“a poor lady" not "a pot lady"...

Isn't there a case just being reported this week about a pot lady had to proved she was actually raped by a trans in hospital all female ward??? The hospital was in denial there was non female patient per guidelines as "trans=women"???

Like stories from a different planet. Just unreal!

Well, if we all agreed in previous posts that this transgirl might be subject to bullying if being put together with other boys, why the vulnerability isn't real? If that's a concern at primary school level, how could you be sure this potential threat to them wouldn't be ten folds bigger in the teen years and in an adult world?

Yes, at a society level, we recognise their existence and respect their genuine choice (if not being coerced) and we put law in place to help them blend in the society as how they want to live their life. But at individual level, lots of people feel uncomfortable with them (less so for gay and lesbian), probably mostly due to the chances of physical threats when actually their body is of much stronger built and have different physical drive. And I'm sure there are people out there want to hurt them just because what they claim to be (like gays decades ago?). I do believe in day to day life, they suffer more than normal people and desperate want be accepted.

I know I might be gaslighted for saying this, but we do need to recognise this , and find a solution to accept and support them BUT without compromising women/girl's right+ children's physical development, like how it's be pushed right now.

Re lying to children about the possibility of sex change... Before I became aware of this issue and aware of the media's gaslighting stance, I used to notice occasional click bait articles about "men" giving birth. Every time I'd click, wondering "oh has medical science managed something amazing now?" and every time I'd find out that it was of course a woman. I am masters educated (obviously not in the sciences!!!) and yet still gave the headlines the benefit of the doubt each time! Now imagine how primary school children think after they've received training from gender ideologists.

Question. If a girl got pregnant and had shared a dormitory with a post-pubescent male who identified as a trans girl, how would anyone prove that the pregnancy was a result of the sex that was had on the residential? Surely if they had sex on the residential, they could have had it before or after the residential (unless we are talking about rape)Can you imagine the court case and questioning that any poor girl would have to go through if a parent tried to ‘sue’ a school for putting their child in that situation?

Obviously a DNA test could prove/disprove paternity but then the girl who was made pregnant would need to prove that this was the first and only time that they and the other trans girl had had sex - that’s if anyone wanted to claim that the school was negligent for creating the opportunity by allowing mixed-sex dormitories.

The mind boggles. Just keep residentials single sex FFS. Good luck OP.

You're forgetting that tHeY jUsT wAnT tO pEe!