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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Graham Linehan interview in The Times (17 March 2023)

184 replies

IwantToRetire · 17/03/2023 01:42

From both ends of the trans debate, I am told his interventions are “counterproductive”, “a net bad” and “unhinged”. Some gender-critical women — that is, women who agree with him — believe he craves attention, martyrdom and leadership of a movement whose fight is not even his. One mentions that he was once pro-porn and sex work, which he admits to being before “talking to feminists” changed his mind. Over on the other side of the battle lines, an activist dismisses him as a fringe character full of hot air. None of these people is prepared, however, to go on the record, mostly saying they fear he will retaliate in his customary style.

There is one admirable exception. She is Kathleen Stock, the radical feminist philosopher who resigned from the University of Sussex in 2021 after a campaign by “queer, trans and non-binary” students who wanted her fired. “Graham and I have clashed in the past,” she says, “and we probably aren’t each other’s favourite people. But I think it’s fair to say he’s genuinely committed to fighting what he believes is a woman-harming and child-harming ideology (and I agree with him on that); and he talks to some demographics — particularly ordinary blokes, who don’t really care so much about niceties of language and aren’t put off by his sometimes bludgeoning style — that others don’t necessarily reach.”

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/broke-shunned-and-cancelled-father-ted-creator-graham-linehan-and-the-trans-debate-cgv8gqpjk

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(If you paste the Times link above into archive.ph/ it has been archived)

OP posts:
TheSingingBean · 17/03/2023 15:24

DarkDayforMN · 17/03/2023 11:32

Glinner is still paying the price for being one of the first to speak out and it sucks. It’s not like he’s especially vicious or anything, he was just willing to say what no one else at that time with a public profile was saying (no, “trans women” aren’t women.)

I think without him we’d have self-ID; he played a critical part in raising awareness back in the days when it was all about filling in consultation responses.

I really hope he is publicly vindicated.

I completely agree.

It's so sad (and profoundly disappointing) that his friends deserted him. I used to love Graham Norton, I can't look at him in the same way anymore.

I know many are silenced by fear but to be unwilling to say ANYTHING in support? Shameful.

Slothtoes · 17/03/2023 15:15

Mavis haha excellent

DameMaud · 17/03/2023 15:13

FOJN · 17/03/2023 13:27

Actually Glinner comes out of this with 100% sterling integrity. Billen looks awful lurching around to find something that will stick, maybe about obsession or mental illness of some kind..

The comments about buying coffee and a pastry were in particularly poor taste too.

Being gas lit by the state, it's institutions and bullied by your own industry would be enough to make anyone's mental health suffer.

There are days when I don't look at news to avoid this issue because I can scarcely believe the world we're living in and I have not been subjected to anything like the abuse GL has endured.

That 'small pastry' comment smarted with me too FOJN.
Struck me as setting it up from the start to portray Glinner as vulnerable in some way- to inspire pity rather than admiration. A foreshadowing of the later obsession comments.

I also feel exposure to the media/culture of this topic threatens my mental health. I can feel it as it's doing it! There's so much I use to love or was interested in that I actively avoid now- but it's so bloody hard to avoid isn't it?

GrimDamnFanjo · 17/03/2023 14:54

I admire Glinner for simply keeping going.
How easy it would have been to just say he'd made a mistake and got things wrong.
Instead he loses his family, friends and most of his work.
He is on a mission and I sincerely hope that he gets some happier days soon.

MavisMcMinty · 17/03/2023 14:51

Interesting @LizzieSiddal - Flanagan is so popular, such an “everyman”, that’s encouraging.

LizzieSiddal · 17/03/2023 14:47

I feel so sorry for Graham, he’s paid such a high price. I hope things turnaround for him very soon.

As an aside I went to see Micky Flanagan this week. He did a whole section on “The Trans Swimmer”. I was very relieved at the response from the crowd, lots of laughing clapping and cheering.

ditalini · 17/03/2023 14:12

RoyalCorgi · 17/03/2023 14:05

A PP mentioned Dave Chapelle and Ricki Gervais, and the fact they hadn't been cancelled. Obviously part of it is that they are too big - too famous, too successful - to cancel. But the other difference is that they are able to look at this issue and keep some distance - when they mock it, it's to point out the intellectual absurdities. With Glinner, you can absolutely feel the enormous moral rage he has that means he can't keep a distance from it. He sees this, rightly or wrongly (I think rightly) as a war, not just against a ludicrous ideology, but against an ideology that is enabling sexual predators to actively harm women and girls. If you see it like that, and if you actually care about the welfare of women and girls, then it's very hard not to feel as intensely as Glinner does.

Yep. Glinner is trying to do something about it, has treated it as a campaign just like he gave his support to Repeal the 8th, and given that he put his relationships, career, financial security on the line I don't blame him for feeling 'well what the fuck else do I have to lose?'.

Chapelle and Gervais have made jokes. Which should be BOG STANDARD! That's how completely crazy this whole thing is - it is normal and average and unremarkable for comedians to make jokes. It is normal and average and unremarkable for comedians who make edgy jokes about the world as it is in all its craziness to comment on this sort of thing. But most of them don't. At all.

MishyJDI · 17/03/2023 14:10

I think the problematic "I said I'm from Iran" episode in the IT Crowd is super funny. Today, not acceptable. The same as how trans were portrayed in Ace Ventura.

The thing is though, to admit that it was a joke of the age, and not one of today. Look at how some of the Monty Python jokes have aged badly. What is not good is not admitting that, such as John Cleese going feral about how today you just get cancelled.

Nah John. It just aint funny any more. Try a different angle. Certainly not GMB news!

Anyway as I mentioned. Trick is to make comedy relevant to today's world - which is a lot more educated around using simple minority stereotypes. Thank goodness!

RoyalCorgi · 17/03/2023 14:05

A PP mentioned Dave Chapelle and Ricki Gervais, and the fact they hadn't been cancelled. Obviously part of it is that they are too big - too famous, too successful - to cancel. But the other difference is that they are able to look at this issue and keep some distance - when they mock it, it's to point out the intellectual absurdities. With Glinner, you can absolutely feel the enormous moral rage he has that means he can't keep a distance from it. He sees this, rightly or wrongly (I think rightly) as a war, not just against a ludicrous ideology, but against an ideology that is enabling sexual predators to actively harm women and girls. If you see it like that, and if you actually care about the welfare of women and girls, then it's very hard not to feel as intensely as Glinner does.

MavisMcMinty · 17/03/2023 14:05

Dont sweat it! Welcome to the Dark Side Mavis

I said to my OH when he raised his eyebrows at some of the interviews and podcasts I was listening to:

”I hear I’m a TERF now, Father.”

Slothtoes · 17/03/2023 14:02

Dont sweat it! Welcome to the Dark Side Mavis Grin

MavisMcMinty · 17/03/2023 13:57

I feel ashamed because I never got “involved” with the trans debate until I found MN a few months ago. I never denigrated Linehan (or Rowling) but neither did I defend them when I couldn't understand what other people were getting so upset about. I dutifully unfollowed them both on Twitter, even though between them they have given me hours, days, weeks of enjoyment. I do feel very bad about this, very weak, far too bothered about other people’s opinions.

Baaaaaa · 17/03/2023 13:46

Thank you Graham.

Aside from being harmful to womens rights and childrens health, this ideology is authoritarian.

Some people are just strong secular liberals and less prone to Asch conformity.

I think Graham "got it" immediately and feels a moral obligation.

I couldn't admire him more.

Slothtoes · 17/03/2023 13:31

^my agreement was to FOJN

Slothtoes · 17/03/2023 13:30

Yes agree with you completely.

SavBlancTonight · 17/03/2023 13:30

I feels sorry for him and respect that he genuinely believes in this fight but I follow him on Twitter and I quite often find myself recoiling at the things he says. his attacks on Sam Smith were so inappropriate. And he loves to name call women, even those who are on the same side as him.

I think he's taken so much flack and had his whole life turned around that he's doubled down and that he goes too far.

But I'd fight every day for his right to be heard and for his talent as a writer to be irrelevant to how I think about his campaigning.

FOJN · 17/03/2023 13:27

Actually Glinner comes out of this with 100% sterling integrity. Billen looks awful lurching around to find something that will stick, maybe about obsession or mental illness of some kind..

The comments about buying coffee and a pastry were in particularly poor taste too.

Being gas lit by the state, it's institutions and bullied by your own industry would be enough to make anyone's mental health suffer.

There are days when I don't look at news to avoid this issue because I can scarcely believe the world we're living in and I have not been subjected to anything like the abuse GL has endured.

Slothtoes · 17/03/2023 13:21

OK I reread it and still found it very poor, reads as if written by a journalist who wants to dine out on having met the big bogeyman guy and having got the full low down on his presumed shameful degraded time out in the cold media wilderness.

Actually Glinner comes out of this with 100% sterling integrity. Billen looks awful lurching around to find something that will stick, maybe about obsession or mental illness of some kind..

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 17/03/2023 13:12

Black Books is on All4 as well. Never watched that or the IT Crowd. Will it generate royalties for @Glinner if I do? I could watch Father Ted on an endless loop. I'm not keen on musicals but would probably have made an exception for that one.

Scout2016 · 17/03/2023 13:12

Thanks to the PP for the gardening reminder. 8 days and quite a way to go.

I didn't realise so few people pay for the substack mail outs.

Abhannmor · 17/03/2023 13:05

Glinner is far and away the best comedy writer of his generation. No one comes remotely close.

You have to go back to Galton and Simpson. Or Spike Milligan. There is a child's wonder in his humour I think. Children love Dougal because he still knows something other adults have forgotten : grown ups aren't as smart as they think they are.

I think Graham is genuinely baffled by this whole thing. He travelled around Ireland campaigning for Repeal of the ban on abortion. Then many of the people he supported turned on him. He could have chalked it down to experience in 2017 and saved his career.

But there is that insistent voice in his head saying : 'It's a bit mad isn't it Ted?'.

Spidergloves · 17/03/2023 13:00

I'm sure Father Ted has been on Netflix before, but isn't there now. The IT Crowd is though.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/03/2023 12:59

Yes @BloodyHellKen you can’t tell me that Adam Hills doesn't know what a woman is! one of my biggest disappointments though is Dara O Briain who makes a huge deal out of science & evidence and is absolutely silent on this issue

CrossPurposes · 17/03/2023 12:51

Father Ted and The IT Crowd are on All4 though I think a certain episode has been memory holed. www.justwatch.com/uk

Graham Linehan interview in The Times (17 March 2023)
Graham Linehan interview in The Times (17 March 2023)
StephanieSuperpowers · 17/03/2023 12:44

Yeah. I must say, there are a lot of comedians I just don't find funny anymore because of this. Actually, most. It's strange, many of them position themselves as brave tellers of truth to power but nothing could be further from the truth.