Joanthan Haidt article on why 'emotional thinking' causes depression in young women

I have really noticed this too. Things like waiting in line at the bank, with nothing to entertain you. Or wearing those awful old itchy tights that keep falling down and ugly clothes for special occasions. Or being hungry until meal time.

In one way it seems like, why would you keep these kinds of things if you can avoid them, they stink. Especially the stupid tights or clothes you don't like.

But at the same time it seems like so so many children now can't bear even the most minor discomforts, and cease to cope when they have to deal with them. But it seems like they are not building up the skills to deal with these things.

Yes, I think that's absolutely a big part of what we are seeing now. And both parenting trends and political rhetoric are feeding into it more and more.

I would say that the fact that in many societies girls have or have had less control over their lives might have an impact. There could be a certain amount of learned helplessness.

Though I am not sure that the locus of control has to be on big picture things necessarily, like what career you choose. I think it's also about things like learning self-control and how to take action in normal society, including play, or learning a new skill and so on. Just the experience of taking something on and doing it. Also learning to control your own body and emotions, which is often a little different for boys and girls, though I think both sexes deal with it.

I think even in the past when there were fewer choices in many ways, young people had more of these kinds of experiences of immediate action and result. Many kids today don't do much for themselves at all, even though they have a lot of certain kinds of choices.

Yes, very well said. This is exactly how I’ve tried to bring mine up. You’ll have great times, crap times and hopefully mostly fine times. Life isn’t always fair but things usually work out at least ok. Calm down, get a grip and get on with it.

It has been stated on here before that, because of the protocol of affirmation and the assertion that “being trans” is a natural and normal state of being, rather than a mental health disorder, newer supportive treatments, such as CBT, have never been tried in this cohort of patients.

These patients, in my opinion, are in a situation where they have drawn a false conclusion about themselves (that they are, or should really be the opposite sex). Then as they attempt to maintain that falsehood, they are being encouraged towards paranoid feelings by the constant barrage of negativity from many sources, about how they will be traumatised by minor occurrences and how they will be beset by suicidal feelings if denied anything they think they want.

It seems that CBT to challenge every single one of those false assumptions and hyperbolic negative messages might easily be a more healthy approach than encouraging them in their continued pursuit of an impossible dream.

Haidt's other book is equally insightful- The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Poitics and Religion.

In it he uses a framework for understanding why people behave the way they do. There's a set of attributes he calls (from memory) foundations e.g. care/harm and this is what drives them. Well worth a read. There are lots of lectures and interviews on YouTube if that's more your thing.

Toxic empathy

Great phrase! I love this too. This really captures the issue!

But life involves rough patches, and negotiating them is not optional

I love this line!

Haidt is a hero of mine. Most of my heroes are less erudite.

I see an enormous loss of tolerance of discomfort.

Children being made to wear coats when they aren't cold, or sprayed with sunscreen and water bottles on a warm day. Parents who take snacks and a drink for their child whenever they leave the house.
Fallings out at school being called bullying.
Never failing in PE or competitions.
Never being told that sometimes life isn't fair, and you'll be punished for something you didn't do, but you probably got away with something a different day so it all evens out.
An expectation that systems need to account for all individual needs, rather than recognising that nothing suits everyone and we all muddle along as best we can.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm a strong empathic parent, but teach self reliance, teamwork and resilience! But life involves rough patches, and negotiating them is not optional.

YES!!!

Toxic empathy - I think if you actually wanted to find a "female version" of toxic masculinity it would be that. Empathy is one of the most important skills but if its unbalanced in who its directed too, or if its prioritised over all else it becomes quite harmful.

Absolutely but its very difficult explaining that to someone whose feelings are being interpreted as clinical disorders when they're possibly not.

Anyone who has had bouts of major depression or anxiety or both and then also ordinary mood changes and ordinary stress knows that the two are not the same at all. Not even measurable along the same dimension, really.

The latter is like having an argument with a neighbour who mutters something mean under his breath, the former can be like that neighbour picking up an axe and coming after you.

Yes correct, its also about attachment which is our blue print for our relationship with ourselves but also with others.

The problem is that either a child learns to experience its caregiver in an unpredictable manner which leads to an external locus of control, or caregivers are behaving in a way which shows the child that life is frightening and dangerous or that life happens 'to them' rather than them being engaged with life as it were.

Normal feelings have become pathologised, so rather than being a bit anxious, one is 'suffering from anxiety'.

Normal low mood at times, we all experience that, is clinical depression

Feeling unsafe instead of 'thats a bit awkward or uncomfortable'

(Im not minimising MH issues by the way as I have had clinical depression and anxiety)

I agree with all this. I also think the enforced lack of resilience by telling young people that they shouldn't listen to differing views or will be harmed by someone disagreeing with them, is also really bad for mental health.

Fascinating article, thanks for posting it OP 👍

Is this why I now see so many adult people (some even in their thirties) referring to feelings of not being safe in contexts where nobody is threatening them with anything worse than disagreement? That the world is dangerous, parents will protect you etc.? The absence of the stages where children learn, stage by stage, to act independently and face some risks (in age-appropriate and increasing levels, ideally)?

On the internal vs. external locus of control: It's probably not an accident that in many cultures boys are strengthened in feeling internal control and girls much less so.

It's difficult to talk about with people though, because when you do, they seem to think that what is meant is that people consciously become victims.

But it's not that, or not just that. It's a learned way of processing that affects how your brain deals with reality from quite early on. It shapes people's perception of themselves. They aren't deciding to think of themselves as victims, that is how their brain is interpreting what happens around them.

I have friends who well-meaningly try and teach their kids to think this way, and hover to protect them, and I feel so terrible for the children.

In conclusion, I believe that Greg Lukianoff was exactly right in the diagnosis he shared with me in 2014. Many young people had suddenly—around 2013—embraced three great untruths:

They came to believe that they were fragile and would be harmed by books, speakers, and words, which they learned were forms of violence (Great Untruth #1).

They came to believe that their emotions—especially their anxieties—were reliable guides to reality (Great Untruth #2).

They came to see society as comprised of victims and oppressors—good people and bad people (Great Untruth #3).

that was a really interesting read.

And those three great untruths are on the money.

Excessive empathy (be kind) can in itself be toxic - young women in particular have placed themselves and each other under enormous social pressure in recent years to think constantly about the needs of others rather than their own. Rejecting that demand can result in harsh criticism, isolation, cancellation etc. But accepting it is obviously going to have tough psychological consequences.

I've found it useful in a personal sense as well. Watching this whole shitshow emerge, it's easy to feel hopeless and "victimised". I find it helpful to remember that the majority of people are on women's side and, as no debate has been shown for the bullying that it is, society is now not only debating but challenging the removal of women's rights and child safeguarding.
People are refusing to be victimised any longer - and the emergence of so many courageous women and men is inspirational.

progressive institutional leaders have specifically taught young progressives that catastrophizing is a good way to get what they want

This really jumped out to me in the piece. It's not just harmful to the people absorbing the message, it's also teaching them to be manipulative and refuse to take responsibility for themselves.

Look at the appalling use of (false) suicide stats in order to argue for a cause. It is essentially saying "if you don't give us what we want, you are responsible for the consequences of OUR actions".

Who uses the phrase "look what you made me do"? Abusers.

Exactly this. I talk about this a lot. We unfortunately promote a victim mentality in society today, its so unhealthy.

😂