Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism as Racist Backlash

64 replies

IwantToRetire · 10/03/2023 16:54

Just in case you weren't aware that women are to blame for everything, now you can learn how feminism is an extention of racism! (Although it implies that 21st Century Feminism is not driven by Racism?)

How Racism Drove the Development of Nineteenth and Twentieth Century Feminist Theory - part of the University of Sheffield Faculty of Arts and Humanities Decolonisation Series

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/feminism-as-racist-backlash-fah-decolonisation-series-tickets-522058409757?aff=ebdssbdestsearch

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
namitynamechange · 08/06/2023 18:05

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/2/6/how-indian-women-contributed-to-the-suffrage-movement. This is a much better article on the subject. Undoubtedly individuals like Fawcett were flawed, and there is nuance in the fact that women's rights in India were considered but Indian women weren't seen as equals. But having good intentions coupled with a patronising attitude is NOT the same as being a slave trader and I don't see how it helps at all to suggest they are. What I mostly got from that times article though is that it's author is a bit of an edgelord who's found a way to make it pay. As opposed to mukherjee who may say uncomfortable things but is interested in actual history.

Women’s suffrage fight not ‘purely Western phenomenon’

Historian Sumita Mukherjee on the contribution of South Asian women to British women’s suffrage battle 100 years ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/2/6/how-indian-women-contributed-to-the-suffrage-movement

AgathaSpencerGregson · 08/06/2023 09:41

I have the same question here as I have in relation to every piece of idiocy dribbling out of our universities at the moment; why the fuck am I paying for this?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/06/2023 09:37

Let's topple the statues of all men, irrespective of status, race, colour or creed who can be demonstrated to agree with sexist ideologies or have been sexist in their lifetimes.

OneHundredOtters · 08/06/2023 08:56

A bit late to the party but here's a sharetoken for the times link

Article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d45b8dd2-cc61-11ea-b702-e559f69f5512?shareToken=a3c328201d3dc342e88255e650c66468

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/06/2023 02:46

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/06/2023 20:34

As for the speaker it sounds very much like misogyny is becoming mainstream and acceptable.

Unfortunately misogyny is mainstream and acceptable. Feminism developed millenia before we called it "feminism" to help women deal with and counter the misogyny miasma that surrounds us.

Misstache · 08/06/2023 02:23

I 100% agree about leaving out working class, grassroots organizing as well as organizing outside of official organizations - it’s a shame so much of working class womens’ history for all women is erased or diminished. Especially with race/class solidarity work because it’s the middle/professional classes that are more racially segregated. Working class women have so many histories of racial solidarity that isn’t treated as “real” activism and protest.

IwantToRetire · 08/06/2023 00:49

I don’t agree with the article, but as always I find it interesting that people on a board based in the UK insist on seeing race (and particularly discussions of black people and race) as an exclusively US phenomenon.

I haven't re-read this thread but from the time it was first posted, I dont remember anyone denying the existence of race / racism as an active part of the UK today and in the past.

The confusion was that the author of the article made claims that didn't seem to stand up, and part of the thread was trying to understand the interaction of racism and feminism in the US and whether this had influenced the author.

re. the article Black Feminism in the UK its is interesting but focuses on a particular political grouping of women from different communities in the UK, ie left both radical and labour socialism. It doesn't reference any of the Black Women activists who grew out of and away from Women's Liberation, but certainly didn't identify with the academic, left organising groups identified in the article.

eg where is the mention of Outwrite very much part of the concept of autonomous organsing outside of existing male structures, and the grassroots activism of Olive Morris (ignored as almost certainly the creator of what became Women's Refuges - ie not Erin Pizzey). Most of the early refuges were set up and run by local working class and Black women to help women in their communities. (Another example of when funding enters the picture the "professionals" move in and appropriate the work of those who dont sit and write papers, thesis and hold conferences.)

So not in any way saying the article isn't valuable, but it is the product of an academic approach to feminism that ignores that many of the actual practical advances made for women in the UK, was from grass roots organising.

I wonder if there are any oral history projects that will give Black Women who were grass roots organisers the opportunity to talk about their achievements and be equally recognised as those who fit the academic paper notion of what is important.

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/06/2023 20:34

As for the speaker it sounds very much like misogyny is becoming mainstream and acceptable.

LangClegsInSpace · 07/06/2023 20:33

@Maduixa , @Misstache great posts, thank you for taking the time.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/06/2023 20:33

To be fair, there is truth to the argument that the extension of the vote to women in America was in part argued for as a counter to concern about giving black men the vote

It is also true that some white women worked for black male suffrage and many black women and I believe even a couple of men supported female suffrage.

I always wonder why the black male suffrage movement isn’t castigated for arguing for suffrage for both black men and black women.

LangClegsInSpace · 07/06/2023 20:23

GrinitchSpinach · 10/03/2023 18:29

It is accurate to say that many US suffragists were involved in the movement to abolish slavery, and that the relationships between white US suffragist women and black US abolitionist men was complicated and fraught. I'm not an expert in the area so won't weigh in at length on that aspect.

In today's context, I think the speech on misogynoir by Lorraine Nowlin of WDI USA at the national convention in September 2022 is relevant:

lorrainenowlin.substack.com/p/wdi-usa-convention-speech

The whole thing is really, really worthwhile. Here is the conclusion:

Lynching was used to shape my perception of White women as liars not to be trusted. I am stretching my thinking about White women; will you stretch your thinking about me and other Black women? Consider that Black women were victims of sexual terrorism by White men while working as maids in White homes during Jim Crow. It makes me wonder if White women were taught not to see Black women as victims of White male sexual aggression but as loose women. It is likely that we were both given carefully crafted exaggerations about each other by our “grandparents” which in turn influences how we perceive each other. Again, we must stretch our thinking beyond what we were taught in order to Reignite the Women’s Liberation Movement.

This is brilliant, thank you.

Misstache · 07/06/2023 20:09

I should also say that black women ALSO cape for harmful and violent black men too (and white men for that matter.) So it’s not something unique to white women. Women of ALL RACES will defend men, shame and judge other women, and take benefits from aligning with male power. It’s patriarchy and sexism that are the issue. ALL women have to work to unlearn this. Acting like black men or men of any and all races aren’t sexist just because they also experience racism just harms women, particularly black women who have spent generations being told that speaking up about black men makes us tools of white supremacy. This is how violence against us gets hidden and silenced.

Men are always trying to divide women from each other so we don’t start talking and organizing.

TLDR this hotep is idiotic

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/06/2023 19:47

Thank you Misstache, that was really interesting.

Misstache · 07/06/2023 19:25

I don’t agree with the article, but as always I find it interesting that people on a board based in the UK insist on seeing race (and particularly discussions of black people and race) as an exclusively US phenomenon. You do realize the UK was involved in the slave trade for hundreds of years, that British people owned plantations across the Caribbean, that the British economy was driven by slavery (see Eric Williams’ work on the slavery economy) and that Britain colonized countries across Africa, the Caribbean, and Asia until the 1960s? And that money, those laws, and that those social and political ideas shaped British society as well?

So no, the corollary in Britain wouldn’t be solely “the working class,” but rather the treatment of Black and brown women across the world in countries where white women serving as missionaries and teachers spread the ideologies of white supremacy. The difference is in the US it was “at home” while in the UK these interactions largely took place abroad in the colonized country (other than nannies /domestics.) But that doesn’t mean women didn’t play a role and that it didn’t affect the politics, views, and conceptions of womanhood - for example, I think of Mary Kingsley who was hailed as a progressive scientist, adventurer and boundary breaking woman but whose memoir of her travels in Africa is of course deeply racist and anti-African.

There is a complex relationship in white women’s roles in colonization and slavery - white women experience patriarchy and rhetoric about black male rapists was used both to control black people AND to control white women’s movements under the guise of white men protecting white women from black male rapists. White women also did abuse black women viciously. White women were also trafficked to the colonies as brides. So white women both had household power over enslaved/people in servitude AND ALSO were victims of patriarchy. To say that shorter, it’s not FEMINISM that goes hand in hand with racism, it’s patriarchy. White women have a complex role within patriarchy as white men use the protection of white women to justify violence against Black and brown people and many women of all races ride hard for patriarchy. And white women, who have relationships with white men as husbands, fathers, sons, etc often defend those men over black and brown women (to be fair just as women all over the world often defend men over women.)

Moving back to the US, it’s absurd though to say the “purpose” of feminism was racism. First of all, what do we mean by feminism? For example, it’s true that the largest womens’ organization for years in Indiana was the Women’s KKK, but I wouldn’t agree the goals of the WKKK were explicitly feminist - most of the rhetoric was around protecting white families including patriarchal and regressive gender roles. I think he’s conflating any organizing by women as feminist when obviously deeply traditional and conservative women also organize. It would be like labelling the Westboro Baptist Church “feminist” because women organized protests in leading roles.

Many progressive feminist women organized for the abolition of slavery as has been stated in this thread - in fact, tactics like the sugar boycott where women realized the political power of controlling the household purchasing income were influential in rising feminist consciousness. Many women took strategies they learned in abolitionist organizing and turned them towards feminist organizing.

Feminist women also were instrumental in things like prohibition - at the time they saw domestic violence caused by alcohol as a danger especially to working class women, so the simplistic parody of these women simply as misguided prudes ignores that we still don’t have good solutions. We can look back now and say prohibition was silly and middle class meddling, but that misses the complexities of trying to navigate social problems. The Eugenicism shared not only by feminist women but by many progressive men as well is less defensible and clearly classist, ableist and racist, but which of our views will or will not hold up 100 years from now? One hopes that those in the future will be baffled and horrified by us because it would mean we have moved forward - would that negate all our acts and views? Would it be fair for them to say “all” our feminism was based on those negative things?

The eugenics argument against some feminists while true is manipulated weaponized by anti-abortion men who try to pretend therefore birth control is a white supremacist plot to kill (Black male) babies. There’s a huge rhetoric targeting Black women’s rights to reproductive care by saying that abortion and birth control were designed by white women to convince us to kill our babies blah blah blah. So what men like this are really about is to try to convince black women that the patriarchy is our culture and abortions are bad and evil. But of course don’t want to look at men’s roles in making/raising babies.

In fact, this rhetoric is what is actually racist. It’s well documented that under Nixon (this is in a U.S. context obviously) that the Moynihan report was explicitly used to inject rhetoric around black women’s liberation harming Black men and the black family. Because black women have always been the root of the family and play organizing roles in community, Moynihan deliberately created rhetoric around Black women emasculating black men and the need for black men to take back their families and manhood. This set up black women as the enemy and black men as the victims of black women. This is a deeply sexist and racist idea of black women as masculine, emasculating, bad mothers, angry, overbearing and so forth. This was picked up by black male leaders - but it was a deliberate attack on black communities by attacking women.

This type of black man, just like sexist white men, sees black men as the only victims while ignoring the huge rates of sexual and domestic violence against black women. This was exactly why black feminism formed - because black women’s experiences were ignored by the mainstream feminist movement, while black women’s leadership and lives were ignored in civil rights/Black power. One of the early texts was called “All the women are white, all the blacks are men.” Black women organized in civil rights and taught King much about organizing but have been erased. I know some here have absorbed a negative view of intersectionality but if you actually read Crenshaw’s original essay it’s not about “identity politics” or “oppression Olympics,” it’s identifying and explaining these issues. She has a whole section about the rape of black women and the histories of sexual violence in enslavement and segregation, and a whole section about the development of Black feminist thought.

Hazel Carby is well worth reading about the UK context and this article has some names and histories: https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/black-feminism-united-kingdom

Black Feminism in the United Kingdom | Encyclopedia.com

Black Feminism in the United KingdomBlack feminism in the United Kingdom (UK) has it roots in the postcolonial activism and struggles of black women migrants from the Caribbean, Africa, and the Indian subcontinent. These women came to Great Britain dur...

https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/black-feminism-united-kingdom

Proudtobeabitch · 07/06/2023 14:51

So much ignorance, even now, of what feminism is all about. To me it just means fair. I don't think the gender pay gap is fair. I don't think domestic violence is fair. I don't think the murder of a woman every 3 days in this country is fair. Are some women racists yes just as some men are racists. Did we cause racism absolutely not. When a black man is lynched for falling in love with a white woman the KKK will come after him whether the woman cares about him or not. Racists don't need an excuse. We can fight racism and misogyny at the same time. Don't black women suffer violence too?.
Feminists don't hate men; they just don't hate themselves. All women of every colour are my sisters.

Baaaaaa · 13/03/2023 10:01

namitynamechange · 10/03/2023 17:19

To be fair, there is truth to the argument that the extension of the vote to women in America was in part argued for as a counter to concern about giving black men the vote. But that only applies to America whilst doubtless there was/is racism in the UK people weren't ever denied the vote on the basis of their skin. So whilst that history is undoubtedly interesting in its own right it doesn't really relate to the progress of the UK suffrage movement at all. Just an example of the way in which "American history" is read as being world history.

The bit that stands out to me here is that black men got the vote before any women got the vote. More sexist than racist.

TheBiologyStupid · 12/03/2023 12:34

namitynamechange · 10/03/2023 17:24

If I wanted to paint feminism in the UK context as bad/regressive I would concentrate in the interest in eugenics some of the women's rights campaigners in the 19th and early 20th century had. But that would ignore the fact that pre WW2 not everyone understood the horror of where that would lead. And also of course the fact that the eugenics movement originated in California and was considered at the time to be the height of progressiveness. Thank goodness people over there no longer think sterilising mentally ill or "inverted" children/adults .puts them on the right side of history....

Thank goodness people over there no longer think sterilising mentally ill or "inverted" children/adults .puts them on the right side of history....

Indeed, "progressives" would never support something like that. Oh, wait...!

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 12/03/2023 09:50

I think the best way to understand this professor is that his work aims to attack everything he feels attacks his persona.

I notice he’s written unfavourable stuff about BLM too.

Having read a few articles on him and skimmed through some of his own word salad I got the impression that he really wants to be some sort of firebrand-maverick-antagonist-type but got a bit scared when Texans pushed back against his ‘get guns, kill white people’ schtick, so he ran away to Scotland (no guns) and started attacking feminists (not likely to react with violence) from an academic ivory tower where he could be a big fish in a small pond (no real competition in the field of ‘Black Male Studies’ in Edinburgh).

EndlessTea · 12/03/2023 09:33

Feminism, as a movement, has always had weaker boundaries and a greater feeling of duty towards other oppressed groups. This is both bad and good, good because feminism has the ability to improve over time based on internal criticism, bad, because it causes these attacks from outside and because it can be taken over by other movements and their goals.

Yes patriarchy, female socialisation and probably biological drives too, make it almost impossible to put women first for five seconds. Divide and conquer is easy. Getting women to undermine our own interests is easy. Getting women to accept blame and responsibility for men’s actions is easy. Getting women to turn ourselves inside out and tied up in knots of self-criticism - looking to make things better for others is easy.

The hardest thing is getting women to focus on women, while telling the men who want us subjugated, and their female handmaidens, to fuck off.

nepeta · 11/03/2023 17:39

IwantToRetire · 11/03/2023 17:30

Have just read the article about why he moved to Scotland, and more confusingly he talks about exploring the issue of racism in the Global South.

So dont see how focusing on (white) feminism in northern industrial countries will in any way be enlightening.

Who knows, maybe his lectures are fascinating, but stoopping to use clearly attention grabbing headline titles, seems to undermine what he might have to say.

Although who knows, maybe he will be able to show that poverty and exploitation in the global south is caused by all us Karens.

It reminds me a bit of 70s or was it 80s left politics here in the UK. Someone like Galloway, which may on one level work for a speech, would litter what he was saying about right wing politics with over the top analogies or clever word play.

It just seems that feminism has now become the go to menace to society from just about every corner of politics.

Feminism, as a movement, has always had weaker boundaries and a greater feeling of duty towards other oppressed groups. This is both bad and good, good because feminism has the ability to improve over time based on internal criticism, bad, because it causes these attacks from outside and because it can be taken over by other movements and their goals.

I think the best way to understand this professor is that his work aims to attack everything he feels attacks his persona.

That is one of the pitfalls of the current way of viewing social justice only from the viewpoint of suffering groups and not from the viewpoint of which phenomena actually cause injustice and how.

I can't express that in clearer terms yet, but I think we are losing sight of what actually causes institutional injustices of various kinds because, what the main causes are. For instance, intersectionality now sometimes only focuses on other axes of oppression than sex, even inside feminism. It's as if we focus only on the crossings of the streets and not that the streets are there and that being hit by even one lorry or bus will kill people, even though being hit by multiple ones will cause a surer death.

IwantToRetire · 11/03/2023 17:30

Have just read the article about why he moved to Scotland, and more confusingly he talks about exploring the issue of racism in the Global South.

So dont see how focusing on (white) feminism in northern industrial countries will in any way be enlightening.

Who knows, maybe his lectures are fascinating, but stoopping to use clearly attention grabbing headline titles, seems to undermine what he might have to say.

Although who knows, maybe he will be able to show that poverty and exploitation in the global south is caused by all us Karens.

It reminds me a bit of 70s or was it 80s left politics here in the UK. Someone like Galloway, which may on one level work for a speech, would litter what he was saying about right wing politics with over the top analogies or clever word play.

It just seems that feminism has now become the go to menace to society from just about every corner of politics.

OP posts:
nepeta · 11/03/2023 17:11

nilsmousehammer · 10/03/2023 21:18

So did I. Louisa May Alcott for example, who was active in abolitionism and supported the underground railroad, and went on to become a Suffragette.

It does seem a never ending tide of male centred people thrashing around trying to find a justifiable reason why women having equality is a bad thing and no nice woman would want it. And when you look at why they are keen to find reasons, the linking factor is usually women having boundaries that inconvenience males who would like to use those women and a) not face consequences for it and b) not feel shame or experience censure for doing so.

Yes, though now of course someone has argued that Alcott really wasn't a woman at all but probably a trans man...

The abolition movement had several of the women as active participants who later worked for women's rights. One woman abolitionist sailed to England for a meeting and when she got there found out that women were only allowed to be present behind a curtain (if I recall this right). That turned her into a feminist.

Sojourner Truth was certainly both an abolitionist and a feminist, the Grimke sisters etc.

DemiColon · 11/03/2023 14:15

I am not convinced that any of this is real history. This is an instrumental historical exercise for some activist political purpose today. The idea that black men right now are commonly scared of white women because racially motivated lynchings instigated by false claims by specific white women several generations ago is quite the leap. As are other claims using the same logic.

EfingNora · 11/03/2023 07:15

A man mansplaining feminism and telling us uppity women how badly we've been doing it all along? Well what a surprise.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 11/03/2023 03:02

An article re: Curry’s move to Scotland

www.diverseeducation.com/latest-news/article/15104261/dr-tommy-j-curry-is-leaving-the-us-to-establish-black-male-studies-in-the-uk