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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

They/them pronouns in KS1 book

61 replies

AnneGarland444 · 09/03/2023 18:11

I have just been reading a Twinkl book aimed at KS1 children, when I came across the sentence 'Robin got bird poo in their hair and on their boots!' My 7 year old pupil found this very confusing. I have emailed Twinkl about it.
Am I over-reacting, or is this completely unnecessary for a book aimed at such young children? English grammar is tricky enough, without complications like this!

OP posts:
FrancescaContini · 23/03/2023 07:04

puffyisgood · 22/03/2023 22:19

well it wouldn't be one for really little kids, it's just not an important enough usage, but I suppose German kids learn er/sie/es from the cradle.

Er/sie/es have meaning for German-speaking children. They hear and learn to use them in context for several years before they learn to read.

The nonsensical pronouns beginning with an x as mentioned above by a PP refer to nothing meaningful to a small child. As such, using them in reading material aimed at seven-year-olds is nothing but an attempt at imposing an ideology on young children.

So @puffyisgood , you’re making a moot point here.

pilates · 23/03/2023 06:13

Yes agree, terribly confusing for very young children.

AmyandPhilipfan · 23/03/2023 00:44

I don't know which book this is so I can't really give an opinion, though if it's just portraying an ambiguous character who the child can decide if they think is male or female I don't think that would bother me.

I do have to disagree with posters claiming Twinkl is rubbish in general though. The wealth of resources on the site is amazing. And if you want something that's not there and you email them they will try to make it for you. And I won't forget that when the schools shut in March 2020 they opened up all their resources to everyone for free. For months! I think they're an amazing company.

fozwomble · 22/03/2023 23:56

ScrollingLeaves · 22/03/2023 23:41

But of course that wouldn't let you become purple with the RAGE now, would it?

A Key Stage 1 child would not know when to use ‘they’ rather than ‘he’ or ‘she’ in a grammatical way.

As it turns out, from the answer the OP received, the intention was not to teach grammar anyway but to remove ‘he’ and ‘she’ from the child’s use of language for ideological reasons.

Maybe Twinkl are trying to be inclusive of trans and non-binary folk. We exist so why is it an issue to use appropriate pronouns? Or maybe they've left the gender undetermined so all children reading the story can see themselves in the character because they don't have to think of them in a specific gender.

ScrollingLeaves · 22/03/2023 23:41

But of course that wouldn't let you become purple with the RAGE now, would it?

A Key Stage 1 child would not know when to use ‘they’ rather than ‘he’ or ‘she’ in a grammatical way.

As it turns out, from the answer the OP received, the intention was not to teach grammar anyway but to remove ‘he’ and ‘she’ from the child’s use of language for ideological reasons.

landOFconfusion · 22/03/2023 22:36

My children were fluent in three languages before they learned how to read. So I think it would be a mistake to that think young children are incapable of learning different modes of grammar - unless they are dealing with a developmental delay. Young brains are near the peak of their neuroplasticity.

Pinkflipflop85 · 22/03/2023 22:34

Peekingovertheparapet · 22/03/2023 22:30

@Pinkflipflop85 interesting, thank you, I hadn’t considered. I’m still not sure what 8yo needs to spell antiperspirant or biannual (which is not even a useful word)

It's truly nonsensical.

Our year 2 children had squabble and quarrel recently.

Bit of a thread derail there, sorry!

Peekingovertheparapet · 22/03/2023 22:30

@Pinkflipflop85 interesting, thank you, I hadn’t considered. I’m still not sure what 8yo needs to spell antiperspirant or biannual (which is not even a useful word)

Pinkflipflop85 · 22/03/2023 22:26

Peekingovertheparapet · 22/03/2023 20:24

As a parent twinkl is the bane of my life. It’s mostly terrible and get teachers rely on it heavily. My y4 child has his spellings from twinkl and sometimes the works are bonkers.

Twinkl has its faults, but if the school is using the Twinkl spelling scheme then those words are straight from the national curriculum appendix. Twinkl didn't decide on the bonkers words!

puffyisgood · 22/03/2023 22:19

FrancescaContini · 22/03/2023 21:13

OMG, these poor children…they just need to learn to read. Can you imagine chucking in a load of meaningless little words in the place of recognisable pronouns?

well it wouldn't be one for really little kids, it's just not an important enough usage, but I suppose German kids learn er/sie/es from the cradle.

puffyisgood · 22/03/2023 22:10

GordonShakespearedoesChristmas · 22/03/2023 20:46

The sentence "I spoke to the Headteacher and they said they would look into it"
Is just as correct as
"I spoke to the Headteacher and she said she would look into it" or
"I spoke to the Headteacher and he said he would look into it"
All of which are examples of ... well... English.
But of course that wouldn't let you become purple with the RAGE now, would it?

as has already been pointed out and as I'm sure you already know, 'they' in that context is only used where you're making it clear that you don't know the sex of the person in question. it can be used interchangeably with 'he or she', e.g. 'when my successor has been recruited, he or she will have some difficult decisions to make'. never, 'please ask Lesley if he or she would like a cup of tea'.

ResisterRex · 22/03/2023 21:57

GordonShakespearedoesChristmas · 22/03/2023 20:46

The sentence "I spoke to the Headteacher and they said they would look into it"
Is just as correct as
"I spoke to the Headteacher and she said she would look into it" or
"I spoke to the Headteacher and he said he would look into it"
All of which are examples of ... well... English.
But of course that wouldn't let you become purple with the RAGE now, would it?

And now imagine you're a KS1 pupil, learning to read and grappling with phonics...

FrancescaContini · 22/03/2023 21:13

puffyisgood · 22/03/2023 21:09

I despise they/them, it's so clunky, and, as with 'woman' etc the words are in use already. If traditional pronouns are really unacceptable to someone then completely new words such as xe/xim or whatever strike me as very strongly preferable.

OMG, these poor children…they just need to learn to read. Can you imagine chucking in a load of meaningless little words in the place of recognisable pronouns?

FrancescaContini · 22/03/2023 21:11

GordonShakespearedoesChristmas · 22/03/2023 20:46

The sentence "I spoke to the Headteacher and they said they would look into it"
Is just as correct as
"I spoke to the Headteacher and she said she would look into it" or
"I spoke to the Headteacher and he said he would look into it"
All of which are examples of ... well... English.
But of course that wouldn't let you become purple with the RAGE now, would it?

Did you read the OP? She’s talking about her young child who is learning to read. The example sentence she gave is indeed confusing.

puffyisgood · 22/03/2023 21:09

I despise they/them, it's so clunky, and, as with 'woman' etc the words are in use already. If traditional pronouns are really unacceptable to someone then completely new words such as xe/xim or whatever strike me as very strongly preferable.

Ingenieur · 22/03/2023 20:53

GordonShakespearedoesChristmas · 22/03/2023 20:46

The sentence "I spoke to the Headteacher and they said they would look into it"
Is just as correct as
"I spoke to the Headteacher and she said she would look into it" or
"I spoke to the Headteacher and he said he would look into it"
All of which are examples of ... well... English.
But of course that wouldn't let you become purple with the RAGE now, would it?

It's correct only if the headteacher is unknown and you're talking in a generic sense. If you know the person it would be correct to use he or she. The singular "they" has always been a clumsy fudge for these situations.

GordonShakespearedoesChristmas · 22/03/2023 20:46

The sentence "I spoke to the Headteacher and they said they would look into it"
Is just as correct as
"I spoke to the Headteacher and she said she would look into it" or
"I spoke to the Headteacher and he said he would look into it"
All of which are examples of ... well... English.
But of course that wouldn't let you become purple with the RAGE now, would it?

ValancyRedfern · 22/03/2023 20:29

I agree Twinkl is rubbish. The sad fact is I don't think there's a single major school resource provider that hasn't been Stonewalled.

Peekingovertheparapet · 22/03/2023 20:24

As a parent twinkl is the bane of my life. It’s mostly terrible and get teachers rely on it heavily. My y4 child has his spellings from twinkl and sometimes the works are bonkers.

FrancescaContini · 22/03/2023 20:18

I meant to say - yes, agree with you, @Birdsweepsin

FrancescaContini · 22/03/2023 20:18

Birdsweepsin · 22/03/2023 19:22

inclusivity is more important than grammar

Adding Twinkl to my list of boycotts right.... now

Isn’t the most important thing that the child understands what he/she is reading? What’s the point of causing confusion for children starting to read, for the sake of “inclusivity”?

Leafstamp · 22/03/2023 20:16

Placemarking.

I just did a Twitter search and there are a few examples on there of problems with Twinkl. Seems they have worked with Stonewall

https://mobile.twitter.com/HomoLittlest/status/1471776894903373826

I’ll be interested to hear what their next response is OP, well done for writing in.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HomoLittlest/status/1471776894903373826

birchtreeglow · 22/03/2023 20:08

@AnneGarland444 , if it helps navigate the resources (Twinkl search is so hard to navigate, a google search of Twinkl + xxx makes searching for resources easier), Twinkl is mentioned in the report commissioned by Miriam Cates MP.
Miriam Cates RSE Report

https://www.newsocialcovenant.co.uk/RSE%20BRIEFING%20FINAL%201631%20(IS)_small.pdf

Birdsweepsin · 22/03/2023 19:22

inclusivity is more important than grammar

Adding Twinkl to my list of boycotts right.... now

AnneGarland444 · 22/03/2023 18:12

I have an Ultimate subscription (not quite sure how I'm going to manage without it 😭) so I'll have a look at their resources.

OP posts: