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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tennessee Marriage Equality - The First to Fall

116 replies

invalide · 09/03/2023 13:09

The anti-LGBTQ political climate you are a part of has contributed to this bill passing. It was never going to stop at trans people.

I'm not some liberal for whom marriage equality is the be-all end-all metric of 'progress' or 'freedom', but it's indisputable we're looking at a backsliding of what limited recent progress has been made.

Tennessee Marriage Equality - The First to Fall
OP posts:
Retractable · 09/03/2023 17:39

I simply don’t understand why anyone would want to be married by someone who didn’t believe you should be allowed to marry. A resentful official being compelled to act against their religious beliefs would considerably reduce the joy of the occasion.

From a practical perspective, it makes sense not to compel officials to officiate in gay marriages.

TrouserTownie · 09/03/2023 17:21

OP, did no one ever tell you that when you point a finger at someone else, there are three fingers pointing back at you

IcakethereforeIam · 09/03/2023 17:16

Hello OP 👋 I understand your concern but I think you're blaming the wrong people. Read the pp's replies with an open mind. Then take that pointy finger and look in a mirror.

I wish our visitors would realised when they stare into MN FWR, MN FWR stares back and does not blink.

StaunchMomma · 09/03/2023 16:55

As ever, the extremists on all sides ruin things for those of us with common sense and a conscience.

It's incredibly depressing to see this but not at all surprising, in the current climate.

Helleofabore · 09/03/2023 16:52

I often wonder at the motivation for an OP that is clearly going to get significantly and expertly shown to be so different from what the OP who seems keen on shaming women believes.

Is there a particular reason an OP such as this wants their arguments shown to be so lacking in coherence and accuracy?

Anactor · 09/03/2023 16:29

DocStrangelove · 09/03/2023 16:12

No U.S. jurisdiction has ever required religious leaders to perform marriage ceremonies to which they had any objection and Tennessee law already stated this plainly. This law allows county clerks to refuse to certify marriage licenses for gay or lesbian couples. In other words, agents of the state are allowed to discriminate.

Or in other words, they’ve come down on the ‘freedom of conscience’ side of the rights conflict. England and Wales came down on the ‘same-sex equality side’.

If someone is conservative in their religious beliefs, they are currently facing difficulties in working as a registrar, in social services and in leading a political party (all UK examples). Then there’s the bakery…

The County Clerk is an elected post in Tennessee. In addition, they don’t have a residency requirement for marriage. So as far as I can work out from a quick Google, a couple who finds that their local office has issues of conscience can either take it to federal level (they’ll win), make it an election campaign issue (judging by the Kentucky case, they’ll win) or go to the neighbouring county to get the licence.

WomensLandArmy · 09/03/2023 16:26

Oh, it's the poster I apologised to previously for calling a mansplaining twit.

rioseco · 09/03/2023 16:23

Trans ideology is absolutely the worst thing that could have happened to LGB rights.

RoyalCorgi · 09/03/2023 16:18

First rule of misogyny: women are responsible for what men do.

DocStrangelove · 09/03/2023 16:12

No U.S. jurisdiction has ever required religious leaders to perform marriage ceremonies to which they had any objection and Tennessee law already stated this plainly. This law allows county clerks to refuse to certify marriage licenses for gay or lesbian couples. In other words, agents of the state are allowed to discriminate.

TheBiologyStupid · 09/03/2023 16:12

It's not gender critical women who don't know what a lesbian is, op.

Indeed. Although Stonewall 's definition didn't go down very well on International Women's Day yesterday:
twitter.com/MForstater/status/1633754172997656576

TheBiologyStupid · 09/03/2023 16:02

invalide · 09/03/2023 13:37

The same politicians who count themselves part of your political movement are the ones bringing about these laws. The debate whipped up around trans people's existence has simply been a foot in the door, an acceptable first target to shift the mainstream discourse further right.

Total nonsense. Why don't you go and burn some more Harry Potter books with your friends from the US Christian fundamentalists. Or doesn't guilt by association work that way? FFS!

BoredOfThisMansWorld · 09/03/2023 16:00

deadwildroses.com/2019/10/07/handy-venn-diagrams-the-radical-feminist-position-on-gender/

OP you need to understand this diagram if you are posting in good faith.

Gender ideologists have just as much in common with religious conservatives. Both believe in gender stereotypes. Religious conservatives might want to deal with homosexuality by attempting to convert a person to be straight. Gender ideologues might deal with homosexuality (especially in children) by attempting to medically convert a person to a facsimile of the opposite sex.

Feminists want to smash gender stereotypes. Homosexuality is safe and welcome in this scenario.

TheBiologyStupid · 09/03/2023 15:56

Lilifer · 09/03/2023 13:17

Exactly that, well put! 🙌🏻

Absolutely!

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 15:32

Just about the cake - the bakers were happy to provide a cake, they were just not prepared to write words they disagreed with on the cake.

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/03/2023 15:27

Like the one you attended yourself. The one where you, someone who was likely seen over enthusiastically participating in the protest, the one with signs like 'decapitate terfs' decided to stroll through the group of women listening to the speakers and record their faces with your camera.

Oh, it's that tedious child again. Still only 97 followers on twitter, I see.

Needs to get back to his studies and learn how to apply critical thinking. *

MNHQ there is no misgendering here. OPs Twitter profile shows a picture of a clearly male individual and does not state any preferred pronouns

PatatiPatatras · 09/03/2023 15:27

Ahhhhh! The consequences of my own actions! Quick call mum, she needs to bail me out. She must. MUUUUM. you awful woman, how dare you not back me up. I don't want to be independent. Waaaah.

Look we've got our own kids who go round in circles. You remove the importance of sex? Fix it. You know exactly what to do to make homosexuality important again.

BeatricePortinari · 09/03/2023 15:19

That seems like a reasonable law.

Helleofabore · 09/03/2023 15:15

I wonder if the OP realises just how intolerant their posts are?

They seem to have form for not once checking critically what they are about to post. I assume that they have come directly from some other social media platform where others who seem to lack the critical awareness of what they are saying comes across to those who recognise that other protected groups have the right to their own beliefs. I also assume that that group OP has been interacting with is outraged that a law even exists that a person or a business doesn't have to provide a service that doesn't fit with their religious beliefs.

www.theguardian.com/law/2022/jan/06/gay-cake-row-man-loses-seven-year-battle-against-belfast-bakery

The OP may have forgotten this event.

Datun · 09/03/2023 15:02

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 09/03/2023 14:33

I read this on Salon a few years back.

extract

America's gay community, or rather, its leadership, is apoplectic over the imminent passage of the first federal gay civil rights legislation, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, or ENDA. ENDA would make it illegal for an employer to fire, or refuse to hire or promote, an otherwise qualified candidate simply because of their sexual orientation (gay, straight, lesbian or bisexual). (Contrary to popular belief, it is legal to fire someone for being gay under federal law and in 31 states.) You'd think this would be cause for celebration, but not so much.

ENDA was first introduced 30 years ago. In all that time, it only protected sexual orientation and never included gender identity. This year, that changed, and gender identity was added to the bill. Coincidentally, this year is also the first time that ENDA actually has a real chance of passing both the House and Senate -- but only if gender identity isn't in the bill. So the bill's author, openly gay Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., dropped the transgendered from the bill, and all hell broke loose. Gay activists and 220 national and local gay rights groups angrily demanded that gender identity be put back in the bill, guaranteeing its defeat for years to come. Many of them, suddenly and conveniently, found all sorts of "flaws" with legislation that they had embraced the previous 29 years. They convinced House Democratic leaders to delay action on ENDA till later in October. They'd rather have no bill at all than pass one that didn't include the transgendered.

Then an odd thing happened. I started asking friends and colleagues, ranging from senior members of the gay political/journalistic establishment to apolitical friends around the country to the tens of thousands of daily readers of my blog, if they thought we should pass ENDA this year even without gender identity. Everyone felt bad about taking gender identity out of ENDA, everyone supported transgender rights, and everyone told me "pass it anyway."

Their main argument, which I support: practical politics. Civil rights legislation - hell, all legislation - is a series of compromises. You rarely get everything you want, nor do you get it all at once. Blacks, for example, won the right to vote in 1870. Women didn't get that same right until 1920. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 provided a large umbrella of rights based on race, religion, sex and national origin, but failed to mention gays or people with disabilities. People with disabilities were finally given specific rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, but gays as a class have still to be granted a single civil right at the federal level. If we waited until society was ready to accept each and every member of the civil rights community before passing any civil rights legislation, we'd have no civil rights laws at all. Someone is always left behind, at least temporarily. It stinks, but it's the way it's always worked, and it's the way you win.

I have a theory about revolutions. I've always believed that you can't force a country to have a revolution, and then expect democracy to stick. Yes, you can launch a coup, topple a government, and execute a Saddam, but for a revolution to stick - for democracy to survive - a country's citizens need to be responsible for, and vested in, the social change happening around them. Otherwise they have no ownership of it, as it wasn't their revolution.

I have a sense that over the past decade the trans revolution was imposed on the gay community from outside, or at least above, and thus it never stuck with a large number of gays who weren't running national organizations, weren't activists, or weren't living in liberal gay enclaves like San Francisco and New York. Sure, many of the rest of us accepted de facto that transgendered people were members of the community, but only because our leaders kept telling us it was so. A lot of gays have been scratching their heads for 10 years trying to figure out what they have in common with transsexuals, or at the very least why transgendered people qualify as our siblings rather than our cousins. It's a fair question, but one we know we dare not ask. It is simply not p.c. in the gay community to question how and why the T got added on to the LGB, let alone ask what I as a gay man have in common with a man who wants to cut off his penis, surgically construct a vagina, and become a woman. I'm not passing judgment, I respect transgendered people and sympathize with their cause, but I simply don't get how I am just as closely related to a transsexual (who is often not gay) as I am to a lesbian (who is). Is it wrong for me to simply ask why?

I wrote on my blog last week about this issue, and shared my doubts and concerns and questions. And I was eviscerated for it. While the majority of my readers either agreed with me, or found my questions provocative and relevant, a vocal minority labeled me a bigot, a transphobe, a rich, white boy living in a big city who didn't care about anyone but himself, and worse. An old activist friend even told me that my words were prejudiced, wrong and embarrassingly uninformed, and that no one of any consequence shared my concerns, and if they did, they were bigots too.

I know firsthand that it's not safe in the gay community to ask questions about how the transgendered fit in. I also know that I am not alone in my questions, or my fear of asking them. While I've been taking abuse for my position, I've also been amazed by the number of phone calls, e-mails and people stopping me on the street here in Washington, both straight and gay, thanking me for asking the questions I did, for voicing the doubts that they share. (Not surprisingly, many of these expressions of solidarity have been off-the-record.)

It would have been easy to simply write a blog post, or an article here today, about how I respect and support transgendered people and their rights (and I do), but how it was unfortunately political necessary to cut them out of ENDA. I could have chosen to never touch upon the question of the role of the T's in the LGB community. But that kind of self-imposed censorship is the reason we're in the pickle we are today. For 10 years now, the right questions never got asked, never got answered, and as a result, support for the inclusion of transgendered people in the gay community remains paper-thin for a sizable number of gays. Normally that wouldn't matter. But when we are asked well, told to put our civil rights on hold, possibly for the next two decades, until America catches up on its support for trans rights, a lot of gay people don't feel sufficiently vested in trans rights, sufficiently vested in the T being affixed to the LGB, to agree to such a huge sacrifice for people they barely know.

I remember sitting at lunch a few years back with Gloria Feldt, then president of Planned Parenthood. I was talking about the looming threat to Roe v. Wade from the Bush court, and Gloria told me that for all intents and purposes Roe was already dead. Conservatives had so whittled away at abortion rights over the past 30 years, with small amendments and ballot initiatives here and there, that it didn't matter that the courts had yet to overturn Roe itself. Roe had already been repealed through attrition and few to no abortion rights remained.

Conservatives understand that cultural change is a long, gradual process of small but cumulatively deadly victories. Liberals want it all now. And that's why, in the culture wars, conservatives often win and we often lose. While conservatives spend years, if not decades, trying to convince Americans that certain judges are "activists," that gays "recruit" children, and that Democrats never saw an abortion they didn't like, we often come up with last-minute ideas and expect everyone to vote for them simply because we're right. Conservatives are happy with piecemeal victory, liberals with noble failure. We rarely make the necessary investment in convincing people that we're right because we consider it offensive to have to explain an obvious truth. When it comes time to pass legislation, too many liberals just expect good and virtuous bills to become law by magic, without the years of legwork necessary to secure a majority of the votes in Congress and the majority support of the people. We expect our congressional allies to fall on their swords for us when we've failed to create a culture in which it's safe for politicians to support our agenda and do the right thing. ENDA, introduced for the first time 30 years ago, is an exception to that rule. It took 30 years to get to the point where the Congress and the public are in favor of legislation banning job discrimination against gays. It's only been five months since transgendered people were included in ENDA for the first time.

I support transgendered rights. But I'm not naive. If there are still lingering questions in the gay community about gender identity 10 years after our leaders embraced the T - and there are - then imagine how conflicted straight members of Congress are when asked to pass a civil rights bill for a woman who used to be a man. We're not talking right and wrong here, we're talking political reality. Our own community is still grappling with this issue. Yet we expect members of Congress, who took 30 years to embrace a gay ENDA, to welcome the T's into the bill in only five months.

Passage of ENDA, of any federal gay civil rights legislation, would be a huge victory for the gay community. Not just legally, but culturally. Hell, we could pass the legislative equivalent of "Four Minutes, Thirty-Three Seconds," the famous avant-garde musical composition that contains no notes and is nothing but silence, and it would still mark the beginning of the end of our long struggle for equality. I'm not joking. We could pass a bill titled "Gay Civil Rights Law" that contained no language whatsoever. The fact that the United States Congress finally passed legislation affirming gay and lesbian Americans as a legitimate civil rights community, as a protected class of American citizens rather than a group of mentally disturbed pedophiles, would empower our community, demoralize our opposition, and forever place us among the ranks of the great civil rights communities of the past and present.

That's why James Dobson, Tony Perkins and the men at the Concerned Women for America are so hell-bent on defeating ENDA. To the religious right, ENDA without gender identity isn't a weak, meaningless bill fraught with loopholes. Our enemies know that passage of any federal gay civil rights legislation is a legislative and cultural milestone that would make it that much easier for all of us - gays and lesbians, bisexuals and eventually even the transgendered - to realize all of our civil rights in our lifetime.

I'll take that half-a-loaf any day.

That's very interesting. I still don't really get why any gay person can't see, at least on a political level, the significant conflict between trans ideology and homosexuality.

I get there is a a crossover socially, especially with HSTS. So I understand the empathy.

But on a political level? The one completely obliterates the other.

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 14:56

The problem with trans activism is that there is absolutely no tolerance of people with different thoughts and beliefs.

There is a word for that.

ResisterRex · 09/03/2023 14:55

Not sure the screen shots are the ones envisaged. Full of inconvenient facts and all that

TrouserTownie · 09/03/2023 14:53

Got enough screenshots yet, OP?

Naunet · 09/03/2023 14:51

invalide · 09/03/2023 13:37

The same politicians who count themselves part of your political movement are the ones bringing about these laws. The debate whipped up around trans people's existence has simply been a foot in the door, an acceptable first target to shift the mainstream discourse further right.

From the side that claims there is no such thing as same sex attraction 🙄

Naunet · 09/03/2023 14:49

invalide · 09/03/2023 13:09

The anti-LGBTQ political climate you are a part of has contributed to this bill passing. It was never going to stop at trans people.

I'm not some liberal for whom marriage equality is the be-all end-all metric of 'progress' or 'freedom', but it's indisputable we're looking at a backsliding of what limited recent progress has been made.

What the fuck are you even talking about? GC women of mumsnet (a UK website) do not make laws in American states, neither are we anti LGB.
Grow up.

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