I am now picturing them being weighed on the scales of justice, perfectly balanced.

I'm going to remember those testicles!

oooh my new retort, 'the testicles of objectivity', excellent

Yes it's great isn't it, Kucing, perfect to describe that specific subset of mansplaining

There's a post on one of the IWD threads here where the company got two men to speak about women's rights, and then when challenged the EDI team said that there was "research" that "gender equality" was achieved more easily when men promoted it, rather than women. Well yes, maybe people will listen to men more, but isn't that the whole problem?

positioning themselves as the voice of reason between straw harridans of their own imaginations on the one side, and trans rights extremists on the other. They seem to think they have something to offer in terms of identifying a middle way that didn't occur to the ladies who were too busy screeching.

Exactly this!

Sorry @Ereshkigalangcleg - my sarcasm didn't land well. I completely agree with this "Men set what's considered "reasonable" for women about rights' issues" and find it incredibly vexing.

Paraphrased "If only the women had been reasonable and civil like us we wouldn't have needed to drive them out" when in fact they had never bothered to engage or learn, preferring to quibble about tone and positioning themselves as the voice of reason between straw harridans of their own imaginations on the one side, and trans rights extremists on the other. They seem to think they have something to offer in terms of identifying a middle way that didn't occur to the ladies who were too busy screeching. The level of delusion is quite impressive really.

I'm on another talkboard where there are some awful misogynistic men and some much more reasonable men, and you see the same dynamic. People sometimes used to call it "the testicles of objectivity" on Twitter. It's a bit like Solomon, arbitrating between two conflicting claims. Men often set themselves up in this role on this issue, I've found.

Men set what's considered "reasonable" for women about rights' issues in a way that other disadvantaged groups wouldn't stand for from non members.

Very good point, Ereshkigalangcleg!

As ever, you need to expand the pic.

Most do, yes. But there's still a tone of not being able to explicitly state that you don't believe in gender identity ideology because it's not "sympathetic" enough to "genuine" trans people. I do appreciate men's support, but there are elements of women's experience of being ignored and sidelined that they can't really speak to. Just venting really. This is a general point, not just about the other place, it happens all over social media. Men set what's considered "reasonable" for women about rights' issues in a way that other disadvantaged groups wouldn't stand for from non members.

Looking at the 'what are your thoughts on agender' thread earlier and found this delightful comment. I can't explain how, but it's hilarious and has been making me giggle for the last couple of hours.

Reasonable and civil men who do nuance.

It doesn't help that most of the voices on that thread appear to be men now.

I did have half an idea yesterday of celebrating IWD by taking an info dump of everything discussed on the general conversations threads (and individual FWR threads started during the same period) and dropping it Elsewhere to show how much they had failed to discuss since events threw some of us over here. [Apologies for cliquey post.]

I just think they fundamentally don't grasp what the problem is for women and girls or particularly see us as a disadvantaged class on the grounds of sex. Their arguments are quite familiar. They seem to think the sad feelings of trans people trump all and that almost everything else, including silencing women and making the world more hostile for women, is a reasonable price to pay to make those other people feel better. As a survivor of DV I know what coercive control feels like, and I don't agree it's acceptable to emotionally blackmail people with suicide threats, either directly or indirectly.

I have been very sruck by just how much is discussed on this board, and the detail. It makes this thread very useful for providing links and summaries and general comments.

I did have half an idea yesterday of celebrating IWD by taking an info dump of everything discussed on the general conversations threads (and individual FWR threads started during the same period) and dropping it Elsewhere to show how much they had failed to discuss since events threw some of us over here. [Apologies for cliquey post.]

But then I realised how much that was - a full thread a month, plus all the individual topics - and there simply wasn't enough time in the day. Plus I'd much rather stay here and talk with people who do actually care, and think, and know about the issues rather than goad those who have their fingers stuck firmly in their ears.

And some powerful people want us to have more babies. How can UK childcare be fixed?

www.theguardian.com/money/2023/mar/09/its-cheaper-to-not-work-childcare-shortage-in-england-puts-strain-on-parents

750 left

And I promise this will be the last post on the topic (at least for this morning), but I was a clinical nurse specialist for the last 23 years of my career, and had to write annual reports including caseload audits and clinical outcomes. I didn’t have a research department to do it for me, and I always had to write it at home on my weekends off because like all clinical services in the NHS we were overwhelmed with referrals on a shoestring budget. If I hadn’t provided this evidence for my role, they’d’ve axed it in the name of “efficiency savings”.

GIDS had no supporting data for anything they did. For decades.

And of course some of the “transphobic” staff were joking that “there will be no gay children left”, i.e. accusing their puberty-blocking colleagues of being homophobic.

Well, quite. It's completely and utterly meaningless, isn't it?

So if anyone accuses you of transphobia to shut you up, just say “What, like the dedicated professionals working for GIDS?” because if they’re transphobic so is the whole fucking world.

Thanks @MavisMcMinty - sounds like a book worth reading.