Women's rights general conversations - Thread 4

I think that for some reason @Britinme you are jumping in to have a go at me without understanding the point at all.

Try reading the comments before that one and see if it clarifies anything. I litreally said, do what you want, but don't tell other women we are misgendering. She replied with the nonsense above, and I responded saying, again, your choice. But actually yes it DOES hurt other women when you say it's rude to speak the truth and it does hurt transitioners too.

If you're going to try to stir up shit on this thread, at least try to understand what you're actually talking about.

@beastlyslumber - she didn't say it was rude and misgendering (as in it would be rude for anyone to do that). She said that's how she would feel if she did that. Here's the post:

"Sorry, but "colluding in a fantasy" is you being rude to me. It's very clear here what my views are. Do I think my neighbour or my niece are men? No. No, I don't. Does it hurt me to refer to them as he/him when I remember? No. Does it hurt anyone else? No. Would I be supportive of medical interventions from puberty blockers to testosterone to top surgery to bottom surgery? No. I'm not suggesting that anyone else reacts to the situations I'm in in the same way but it works for me. It would be rude or hurtful or unnecessary for me to double down on the pronouns, not least because 99% of the time I'm never going to have to use them when I'm with them. Everyone else can do as they wish and whatever sits best with them."

Note the crucial words "for me" and the clear statements that she isn't suggesting anyone else reacts in the same way. I think you have read what she wrote without the care and attention it required and responded in haste.

Good luck!

Union branch AGM upcoming. I've put myself forward as women's officer.

She said it was rude and misgendering not to collude in a friend's fantasy of being the opposite sex. That's what I was responding to.

I'm NOT telling her what to do about her friend. I've repeatedly said that's her choice.

NotDrowningJustCrowing - sounds like a bit of a tricky situation. I'd also use the preferred pronoun (to their face) but inwardly roll my eyes. I have to in my work and I guess it's not a purity spiral I'm willing to get caught in.

@beastlyslumber - I read back over her posts and I don't see @NotDrowningJustCrowing telling any other woman what she should do, just describing what her personal choices are in a particular personal situation. Who are you to criticise those or assume what she would or should do in any other situation?

I already said it's entirely your choice how you conduct your relationships. Just don't tell other women we are "misgendering" or being rude for not colluding in the fantasy. And don't tell us it does no harm, when we know it does.

As far as your own life choices are concerned, it's up to you. I would rather be standing in the truth so my young relatives know they can trust me. But if you make different choices, that's up to you. Just don't tell me I'm rude and misgendering. That's all.

I always liked Levi Stubbs' Tears, but yeah, he was/is.

He wrote perhaps my all-time favourite lyric, although it’s Kirsty MacColl’s voice I hear whenever I try and bring the words to mind:

I saw two shooting stars last night
I wished on them
But they were only satellites
It’s wrong to wish on space hardware
I wish I wish I wish you’d care

But he’s a knob on this matter, as are many otherwise good people.

I used to really like Billy Bragg. What a huge disappointment of a misogynistic arsehole he is.

I can get a wardrobe upstairs single handed on three days of the month

interesting exercise regime you have there @CryptoFascistMadameCholet

Yes. I'm going, "I knew that and I'm basically a half wit with no medical or psychological training of any kind! How did I know that if you didn't?"

@CryptoFascistMadameCholet that seems very plausible. Taking into account the generally accepted poor state of women's health (we're not just small men!), that Doctors are already too quick to diagnose mental health issues in women (it was on a thread), this is another barrier to effective medical diagnosis and treatment for women.

As a separate issue something seems to be kicking off on twitter. Julie Bindel did an interview on GBNews, I'm assuming about the Lesbian Project, Billy Bragg tweeted accusing her of calling all trans people paedophiles. She's given him 24 hours to get out of Dodge apologise and take it down. He might have also threatened her with legal action? Billy Bragg and MAPs both seem to be trending.

I wonder if it has occurred to her that it’s entirely possible that the reason she feels like she is neither male or female could be related to the systemic effects of early onset ovarian insufficiency?

Dr Will Powers (a controversial US based trans doctor who doesn’t really follow WPATH) reckons that loads of young women who come to him for transmasculine testosterone treatment have pre existing PCOS and that treating the PCOS instead can make the gender dysphoria go away. Of course, that’s a very unwoke thing to say and he has been attacked by his own fans for saying it.

Rings true to me though, if only because I’ve been tracking my cycle for 15 years or so and know damn well that different hormone levels effect my energy, strength, internal sense of self and outward demeanour (big DIY and gardening jobs are best scheduled for when progesterone is highest and estrogen lowest - I can get a wardrobe upstairs single handed on three days of the month 😌)
Female athletes now train in a way that is tailored to their hormonal cycles, so it’s deffo not my imagination!

I vaguely remember a Benjamin Boyce interview with a detrans woman who had thought she was a man due to an undiagnosed tumour affecting her natural hormone production. When the tumour was diagnosed and treated, her gender dysphoria went away…

Found it!

The cognitive dissonance of 'they took too long to diagnose me' vs 'it was awful that they insisted on doing physical examinations' must be deafening.

In other 'stating the bleedig obvious' news, to the surprise of absolutely nobody, police are reluctant to investigate their own crimes: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4762883-police-drop-most-complaints-of-officer-violence-against-women-figures-show-bbc-news

While reading the above article, I noticed this headline

www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/it-took-me-2-years-to-get-diagnosed-as-menopausal-because-i-m-in-my-30s-and-i-m-nonbinary-so-doctors-were-even-more-dismissive/ar-AA18Aa0W?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=359733997cbd4cd0ae8e03dcdee25b27&ei=64

I glad I read it early enough to have the time I'll need for all the eye rolling.

Is anyone else just wanting to go "YES! We know you bloody Were you ejit!"

www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/we-were-wrong-pioneer-in-child-gender-dysphoria-treatment-says-trans-medical-industry-is-harming-kids/ar-AA18wUwy?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e4f85cd7225f4c18b9d8a16cec

"We were wrong", says founder of child gender clinic in Canada.

Do you mean Abigail Shrier? Or are you talking about a different book? If the latter, please share details!

Yes beastlyslumber abigail ahearn explains this very well in her book.

Colluding in this fantasy also makes it more difficult for the women to avoid the path of transition. You are pushing them closer to medicine and surgeries.

I'm not being rude. Colluding in a fantasy is exactly what you're doing. You are pretending your friend has changed sex.

Does it hurt other people? YES. It does, actually. Read "Pronouns are Rohypnol." Your lies only make it harder for women like me to speak the truth without censure.

You are already calling me rude for telling the truth. Others will call me rude and put a brick through a window. All for refusing to join in with a lie.