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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why can't I claim I'm black or disabled, but can claim I'm a bloke?

190 replies

SirChenjins · 07/03/2023 14:27

I'm none of the above btw...

I realise that sounds flippant and I genuinely don't mean it to be. Can someone please explain in simple terms (I'm still very much learning about the whole gender issue so realise I should probably know this) why I can't claim to be any of the other protected characteristics (and rightly so - because I'm not) but somehow we've got to a stage where I can call myself Mr Dave and everyone is expected to go along with it? Are we likely to see more cases of people challenging the other protected characteristics as time goes on?

OP posts:
DeeCeeCherry · 09/03/2023 00:27

DojaPhat·
This thread actually makes for near-perfect reading for young Black feminists struggling to find their way. Many of them would do well to realise sooner rather than later that they are not and can never be in solidarity with white women

Yes indeed. International Womens Day - although some seem to think its 'National' women. We were reading this thread at work, jaws were dropping. 2023 and look at this.

DeeCeeCherry · 09/03/2023 00:24

PorcelinaV
I honestly don't have a clue what point you are trying to make here

Sure you don't.

General observation, not directly to you tho as you dont understaaaaand

The Trans issue cant be discussed without 'Yeah but if I was Black' (which is NOTHING to do with Trans issues) because racism must come 1st.

The chattering on & on about Transwomen is bullshit talk used to be slyly racist, including othering Black Women. As evidenced by this thread, and the other almost similar one on another board, yapping on about Black Women yet purporting to be about self-ID/Trans concerns.

Its clear that unifying in a concerted response to Self-ID concerns isnt truly the main agenda. A gift to the Self-ID'ers you claim to be so concerned about. Womens' concerns cant and wont be taken seriously because you only 'see' 1 type of woman - the one that looks like you.

Good luck with all that.

aseriesofstillimages · 08/03/2023 22:23

WillBeAbsolutelyFine · 08/03/2023 13:16

I usually think that anyone who starts with "I identify as..." is already skirting some boundaries. You either are or you're not. You can identify with so and so but to identify 'as' effectively means you're not but you want to be seen that way. You're declaring a belief or wish, not facts.

I have a colleague who has mixed heritage - Caribbean and Indian - who doesn’t identify as black. Another person with the same ethnic heritage could well identify as black. Would one of them be wrong? Are they just expressing a wish to be something they are not?

aseriesofstillimages · 08/03/2023 22:13

MishyJDI · 08/03/2023 10:26

Great question. Well, it's really similar to being gay, lesbian, or bi.

The claim that trans women and men insist they are and always have been biological women or men is largely an Aunt Sally. Some trans people do say this, but in my experience most talk about it in a much more nuanced way, as people whose lives have involved a voyage towards becoming the gender they have always felt or known themselves to be.

This involves physical transformation to a greater or lesser degree because without it you can't experience the societal role or be accepted as the gender you are - including, but not restricted to, who you are when you have sex.

At the root of the current wave of transphobia is an uncritical acceptance of the gender-critical, biologically determinist position, which denies that the socialisation and lived experience of gender is as real as biological sex.

Gender IS real in the same way that orientation is. Just because it's experienced cognitively, emotionally and as a relation to your body, rather than a fact about your chromosomes and what they do, doesn't mean it's less real - because if you insist it is less real, you're saying only genes matter; cognition, emotion and endocrine make-up dont. Nature -defined very narrowly - triumphs.
The opposite to nature is not 'Nurture'; that implies people become trans because of traumatic or adverse experience and is, essentially, a pathology.
To say so opens the door to saying that's why people are gay, too. What lesbians and gay men have done is to successfully propose that it doesn't matter whether sexual orientation is innate or not, 'disordered' or not: I may have been 'born this way' to some extent, as a dreamy, slightly masculine kid, but that's not the issue. The issue is that I didn't decide to be a lesbian through confusion or adversity or rebelliousness, but because I experienced a largely somatic, hormonal rush of sexual longing when I, a girl, saw other girls and not when I saw boys. I then took a decision later on to socialise those feelings by adopting an identity called Lesbian.

I do not know what it's like to be trans; I've always been OK about inhabiting a female body. But I'm prepared to believe that for trans people, the clash between their body and their nature is as visceral, as immutable, and at times as profoundly ego-dystonic as I, growing up lesbian, found my sexual orientation to be.

The only difference between me and a trans person is that my orientation to others as sexual objects didn't fit society: their orientation towards themselves as sexual subjects doesn't.

But that's as far as I'll go: I don't presume to imagine what it's like being trans. Neither should you.

You see how far we've come from dying on the hill of 'men are men and women are women and nothing can change that'? As scientists often say, I think you'll find it's more complicated than that.... But you need to read beyond these echo chambers and be open to conflicting ideas and thoughts.

So yes it is very different to claiming to be black or disabled.

Hope that gives you something to challenge the orthodoxy of these threads. :)

Hear hear

SirChenjins · 08/03/2023 21:46

Can you explain what you mean please? @DojaPhat

OP posts:
DojaPhat · 08/03/2023 19:35

This thread actually makes for near-perfect reading for young Black feminists struggling to find their way. Many of them would do well to realise sooner rather than later that they are not and can never be in solidarity with white women.

SirChenjins · 08/03/2023 17:58

Absolutely agree @Retractable - and a clear, rational explanation as to why men presenting as women (‘cos feelz)are able to do so when no other protected characteristic can be pushed aside in the same way is yet to be provided by the TRAs that I’ve seen - much beyond ‘because’.

OP posts:
Retractable · 08/03/2023 17:14

SirChenjins · 08/03/2023 16:40

To an extent - but I can't simply declare I feel I don't have the use of my lower limbs, or that I'm blind, or whatever, and access services etc as a result.

That’s the thing really.

Many of us simply don’t care how you identify. How you feel or which boxes you want to put yourself in really don’t matter in the least.

But it starts to matter when people want to control our behaviour (and thoughts) to fit their worldview. Or to access services and spaces purely on the basis of their self-identification.

At various points it does matter that your not Mr Dave the one-legged black man from Nigeria. It matters if you want to visit a gay men’s sauna. It matter if you want to apply for PIP. It matters if you want to apply for a Nigerian passport. It matters if you want to access funding for black African art. It matters if you want to compete in a para sport event. It matters if you have committed a crime and must be placed in a prison. It matters when you go to your GP and they need to evaluate your symptoms. It matters if you get angry that people dare to use she to refer to you.

It matters in all sorts of important ways.

If all it was was just people identifying however they like, it wouldn’t matter and no one would care. But it’s about having the whole world conform to your own sense of self.

SirChenjins · 08/03/2023 16:40

PorcelinaV · 08/03/2023 16:35

Well you actually can become disabled if you feel that way. Some people really do it.

You can't change sex or race however.

To an extent - but I can't simply declare I feel I don't have the use of my lower limbs, or that I'm blind, or whatever, and access services etc as a result.

OP posts:
Florissant · 08/03/2023 16:37

GCMM · 07/03/2023 22:24

It's very common for people to self identify as autistic. And they do seem to be accepted by many in the autistic community and by professionals and researchers.

Many, but not all. I roll my eyes when people self-diagnose with autism.

Signed, someone who actually jumped through the assessment hoops to get a diagnosis from the Autism Research Centre in Cambridge.

PorcelinaV · 08/03/2023 16:35

Well you actually can become disabled if you feel that way. Some people really do it.

You can't change sex or race however.

SirChenjins · 08/03/2023 16:32

Just coming back into this thread. It's been fascinating to read the comments and I agree with so many of them in that it seems to be reflective of male privilege as with so many things - I want, therefore I demand, therefore I will have.

Gender is not a 'voyage' fhs - it's nothing more than a set of social constructs, and being female, just as colour or having a disability, is not something you move towards. You are or you aren't - you can't 'become' simply because you 'feel'. I am no more Mr Dave than I am Mr Dave the black man from Nigeria - but some very powerful voices have constructed a society which enables me to claim (erroneously, of course) that I'm one of those three. The only journey I will make to Nigeria is on a plane.

OP posts:
PorcelinaV · 08/03/2023 16:19

Quoting MishyJDI:

"The claim that trans women and men insist they are and always have been biological women or men is largely an Aunt Sally. Some trans people do say this, but in my experience most talk about it in a much more nuanced way, as people whose lives have involved a voyage towards becoming the gender they have always felt or known themselves to be."

True, they will mostly say that they, "don't deny biology", and acknowledge the biological difference.

But then they immediately ignore biology and act like gender identity is everything.

They think they are basically the same as a woman / man, regardless of biology.

And a lot of the time it's not like they want to make a case for that very radical position. Rather, they just treat it as dogma and insult people over it.

I don't find that kind of "nuanced approach" to be very impressive.

"But you need to read beyond these echo chambers and be open to conflicting ideas and thoughts."

You do realize that this forum allows open debate? It's online trans spaces that typically censor debate and don't allow dissent.

Why can't the trans-activist side handle open debate? Doesn't that suggest that they are intellectually dishonest? Their ideas stand up to scrutiny, but they need to ban any criticism of them?

Have you seen what these lovely folks do on Reddit? Not even on a trans forum or a politics forum. Just a general forum. They will ban you for defending JK Rowling. No debate allowed. It's the other side that wants an "echo chamber".

Bamboux · 08/03/2023 13:33

Shelefttheweb · 08/03/2023 11:46

Were you working on SNP list MSPs?

No. This was in the arts sector.

WillBeAbsolutelyFine · 08/03/2023 13:16

I usually think that anyone who starts with "I identify as..." is already skirting some boundaries. You either are or you're not. You can identify with so and so but to identify 'as' effectively means you're not but you want to be seen that way. You're declaring a belief or wish, not facts.

RaininginDarling · 08/03/2023 13:06

Yes, @Bamboux. I have had some experience in this area too and would agree.

Bloody fed up of the IdentifyAs crowd tbh - usually means a tenuous but highly exploitable link to whatever comes next.

I have a significant enough hearing impairment that needs accommodating in nearly all circumstances. It is not my identity but an inescapable limitation. Meanwhile, my SIL is profoundly deaf and part of the Deaf community. Communication and connection being a profound need for us all it is part of who she is, the person she has become, the culture she has flourished in. She doesn't 'identify' as Deaf though. She unequivocally is.

Magentax · 08/03/2023 12:41

Sorry I think I could be clearer - I suppose I just mean there are "take your word for it" protected characteristics which are sexual orientation, belief and gender reassignment.

Race and disability are a bit of a grey area - some element of identification in some cases.

Sex, marriage, age, maternity are all pretty unassailable.

Magentax · 08/03/2023 12:34

Can someone please explain in simple terms (I'm still very much learning about the whole gender issue so realise I should probably know this) why I can't claim to be any of the other protected characteristics (and rightly so - because I'm not) but somehow we've got to a stage where I can call myself Mr Dave and everyone is expected to go along with it?

You can claim to be gay or religious too, also protected characteristics.

Shelefttheweb · 08/03/2023 12:09

Pixiedust1234 · 08/03/2023 12:00

Not read all of the thread but basically follow the money.

Who financially benefits from you claiming you are black? No one. Not even you.

Who financially benefits from claiming you are the opposite sex? Hmmm, maybe all those drugs and treatments and operations will line someone's pockets whether as a decision maker or big pharma stockholder. You might benefit as a tw due to taking womens jobs too. Its so depressingly familiar. Its just fucking money.

There are other motivations than just money - sex.

monsterradeliciosa · 08/03/2023 12:07

You can claim to be any of those things but it wouldn't make you any of those things.

Having said that, there aren't very many women going around demanding they are a bloke and getting away with it.

Show me one woman with long blonde hair and makeup on who isn't laughed at if she says 'I'm a man called Dave' It doesn't happen.

It's all political.

Also, ironically, ethnicity and disability are far more open to interpretation than sex.

It's all political and it's all a bit silly.

Pixiedust1234 · 08/03/2023 12:00

Not read all of the thread but basically follow the money.

Who financially benefits from you claiming you are black? No one. Not even you.

Who financially benefits from claiming you are the opposite sex? Hmmm, maybe all those drugs and treatments and operations will line someone's pockets whether as a decision maker or big pharma stockholder. You might benefit as a tw due to taking womens jobs too. Its so depressingly familiar. Its just fucking money.

NotHavingIt · 08/03/2023 11:55

PorcelinaV · 08/03/2023 11:40

The thing with the "lady brain" argument, even if it's correct that there is a difference with some people's brains, is what actually follows from this?

You could just say, "there is a biological basis that encourages some people to have this delusion or sense of dysphoria".

That seems far more reasonable than that such people are really "women". Rather, they have a brain defect and they deserve our sympathy and medical treatment perhaps, but "brain difference" is not enough to make someone a woman or man.

The irony, of course, in suggesting that there might be a biological basis for claiming a cross sex identity, is that it undermines the refutations of biological determinism.

NotHavingIt · 08/03/2023 11:52

"Actually, I thought I can identify as any nationality I wish -in that sense of the word where nationality doesn't equal citizenship, but feeling identification with"

Yes, the main bug bear is the phrase 'identifying as', rather than 'identifying with'.

We can all feel a certain affinity for certain types of thing, in that aspects of what that thing represents to us we can feel aligned with. But identifying with, or having sympathy with is not the same as directly being. When we identify with we tend to focus on certain fragments that attract us or that we feel comfortable with.There is far more appreciation, sympathy and empathy involved, rather than appropriation, when you identify with something.

Shelefttheweb · 08/03/2023 11:46

Bamboux · 08/03/2023 11:28

Without being too specific, I have worked on projects which were only open to those who identified as disabled. The majority of those who successfully applied for and benefited from the programme were very tenuously disabled, tbh..it's not quite as different from the gender bollocks as you would hope.

Were you working on SNP list MSPs?

PorcelinaV · 08/03/2023 11:40

The thing with the "lady brain" argument, even if it's correct that there is a difference with some people's brains, is what actually follows from this?

You could just say, "there is a biological basis that encourages some people to have this delusion or sense of dysphoria".

That seems far more reasonable than that such people are really "women". Rather, they have a brain defect and they deserve our sympathy and medical treatment perhaps, but "brain difference" is not enough to make someone a woman or man.