Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why can't I claim I'm black or disabled, but can claim I'm a bloke?

190 replies

SirChenjins · 07/03/2023 14:27

I'm none of the above btw...

I realise that sounds flippant and I genuinely don't mean it to be. Can someone please explain in simple terms (I'm still very much learning about the whole gender issue so realise I should probably know this) why I can't claim to be any of the other protected characteristics (and rightly so - because I'm not) but somehow we've got to a stage where I can call myself Mr Dave and everyone is expected to go along with it? Are we likely to see more cases of people challenging the other protected characteristics as time goes on?

OP posts:
Lastnamedidntstick · 09/03/2023 21:22

WillBeAbsolutelyFine · 09/03/2023 20:56

To whoever asked, yes 'If black women can be women, then trans women can also be women' is also massively problematic - it doesn't matter if it's said by the right or left.

Actually, calling that statement 'problematic' is a humongous understatement. I've never heard it till today and I think it's one of the worst insults Black women can get and that's putting it mildly too. It's beyond despicable. What do Black WOMEN have to do with (male-sexed) Transwomen? 😳

Why would anyone make that statement though? I don’t get it. Black women are women, so how does that mean twaw?

genuinely confused. Anyone explain please?

mak1ngthebestofit · 09/03/2023 21:16

And I see people are again making the argument that to be gender critical = you are racist which yet again there is no explanation for (there never is). I think it’s nothing more than an attempt to make the TRA argument more effective by aligning it with something that is a real struggle. And I agree, isn’t it offensive to black women to say that? As if their womanhood is as questionable as a man identifying as a woman…?

SirChenjins · 09/03/2023 21:12

This isn’t what the thread is about Confused @WillBeAbsolutelyFine Rather than scrolling through the entire thread it’s probably easier to pose @Cattenberg ‘s question again to clarify.

The premise of this thread is that I don’t agree with men self-identifying as women (because they aren’t) anymore than I agree with white people (e.g.Rachel Dolezal) self-IDing as Black (because they aren’t), or people without disabilities self-IDing as disabled (because they aren’t). How the hell have we got to the point that sex is no longer a protected characteristic and men (with their inherent male privilege) can now access single sex spaces, eg women who have raped should “reframe their trauma” and accept males into rape crisis centre’s according to the male-born CEO of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre 😡, or rapists should be placed in the female estate where the voice of the female inmates are silenced and are meaningless, but other protected characteristics - rightly so - remain protected from other groups. Is it males simply exercising their power as always over women?

OP posts:
mak1ngthebestofit · 09/03/2023 21:04

MishyJDI · 08/03/2023 10:26

Great question. Well, it's really similar to being gay, lesbian, or bi.

The claim that trans women and men insist they are and always have been biological women or men is largely an Aunt Sally. Some trans people do say this, but in my experience most talk about it in a much more nuanced way, as people whose lives have involved a voyage towards becoming the gender they have always felt or known themselves to be.

This involves physical transformation to a greater or lesser degree because without it you can't experience the societal role or be accepted as the gender you are - including, but not restricted to, who you are when you have sex.

At the root of the current wave of transphobia is an uncritical acceptance of the gender-critical, biologically determinist position, which denies that the socialisation and lived experience of gender is as real as biological sex.

Gender IS real in the same way that orientation is. Just because it's experienced cognitively, emotionally and as a relation to your body, rather than a fact about your chromosomes and what they do, doesn't mean it's less real - because if you insist it is less real, you're saying only genes matter; cognition, emotion and endocrine make-up dont. Nature -defined very narrowly - triumphs.
The opposite to nature is not 'Nurture'; that implies people become trans because of traumatic or adverse experience and is, essentially, a pathology.
To say so opens the door to saying that's why people are gay, too. What lesbians and gay men have done is to successfully propose that it doesn't matter whether sexual orientation is innate or not, 'disordered' or not: I may have been 'born this way' to some extent, as a dreamy, slightly masculine kid, but that's not the issue. The issue is that I didn't decide to be a lesbian through confusion or adversity or rebelliousness, but because I experienced a largely somatic, hormonal rush of sexual longing when I, a girl, saw other girls and not when I saw boys. I then took a decision later on to socialise those feelings by adopting an identity called Lesbian.

I do not know what it's like to be trans; I've always been OK about inhabiting a female body. But I'm prepared to believe that for trans people, the clash between their body and their nature is as visceral, as immutable, and at times as profoundly ego-dystonic as I, growing up lesbian, found my sexual orientation to be.

The only difference between me and a trans person is that my orientation to others as sexual objects didn't fit society: their orientation towards themselves as sexual subjects doesn't.

But that's as far as I'll go: I don't presume to imagine what it's like being trans. Neither should you.

You see how far we've come from dying on the hill of 'men are men and women are women and nothing can change that'? As scientists often say, I think you'll find it's more complicated than that.... But you need to read beyond these echo chambers and be open to conflicting ideas and thoughts.

So yes it is very different to claiming to be black or disabled.

Hope that gives you something to challenge the orthodoxy of these threads. :)

But you don’t like, actually say WHY sex is different to race/disability so any man can just happily claim to be a woman and we’re all meant to go along with it. This is my problem with the trans arguments, it’s just a lot of word vomit. Probably because you don’t actually have anything sensible to say. And because your philosophy is derived from the work of Judith Butler, famously unintelligible

WillBeAbsolutelyFine · 09/03/2023 20:56

To whoever asked, yes 'If black women can be women, then trans women can also be women' is also massively problematic - it doesn't matter if it's said by the right or left.

Actually, calling that statement 'problematic' is a humongous understatement. I've never heard it till today and I think it's one of the worst insults Black women can get and that's putting it mildly too. It's beyond despicable. What do Black WOMEN have to do with (male-sexed) Transwomen? 😳

SirChenjins · 09/03/2023 20:54

The OP clearly disagrees with members of a privileged group self-identifying as members of an oppressed group. She doesn’t agree with men self-identifying as women anymore than she agrees with white people (e.g.Rachel Dolezal) self-IDing as Black, or people without disabilities self-IDing as disabled

Exactly this. I’ve expanded on my OP several times throughout this thread but I think there was some confusion by a couple of posters re what my OP meant, and rather than reading the thread the claim of racism has been lobbed - or at least, no clear explanation has been given.

OP posts:
Cattenberg · 09/03/2023 20:34

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the two ideas different?

The OP clearly disagrees with members of a privileged group self-identifying as members of an oppressed group. She doesn’t agree with men self-identifying as women anymore than she agrees with white people (e.g.Rachel Dolezal) self-IDing as Black, or people without disabilities self-IDing as disabled.

Whereas the argument that “trans women are women in the same way that Black women are women” reads to me as jaw-droppingly racist, othering, appropriating the struggles of Black women and reminiscent of the old racist trope that Black women are somehow less feminine than white woman.

Perhaps the OP was worded quite flippantly, but to me, the two arguments feel like opposites.

By the way, I would genuinely like to understand. Through Mumsnet, I have learned more about the the racism that Black people experience in the UK. And yet, I feel as though I know a lot less than I used to! Not only do I not understand, I might never really understand.

DojaPhat · 09/03/2023 19:40

@DeeCeeCherry I really wish I had been on Mumsnet back when I attended Black women's groups because I'd have been able to actually lift these views to better illustrate my points in 'real time'. It's just so patently clear and that many 'don't understand' shows perfectly why Black women should really not waste their time, energy and resources trying to explain blindspots to white women (the term blindspot' carrying the weight of a thousand suns). 99.9% of the time you'll be met with blank stares - been there and done that!!. I like to pop in and out of this board from time to time just to check we're still where we are.

To whoever asked, yes 'If black women can be women, then trans women can also be women' is also massively problematic - it doesn't matter if it's said by the right or left.

SirChenjins · 09/03/2023 17:57

Agree. My lived gender and socialisation experience as a woman will never be understood and lived by a man even if he puts on a dress and makeup and calls himself Sue.

OP posts:
turbonerd · 09/03/2023 15:08

comment “At the root of the current wave of transphobia is an uncritical acceptance of the gender-critical, biologically determinist position, which denies that the socialisation and lived experience of gender is as real as biological sex.”

All «socialisation and lived experience of gender» springs from your biologically determined sex.
You can’t get away from it in most parts of the world

Wellies54 · 09/03/2023 12:52

Isn't it one of the great conundrums of life that only trans people know what it feels like to be trans and only trans people can talk about the experience of being trans and yet on IWD a man can write a newspaper article telling women, not only what it is to be a women but that women are wrong when we describe ourselves and our own experiences. 🤨

Bamboux · 09/03/2023 12:36

TheMatriarchy · 09/03/2023 12:32

Trans is not at all similar to sexuality. In fact it completely negates sexual orientation, and reframes it as gender orientation i.e you are attracted to how a person performs sex stereotypes / clothing / femininity / masculinity / culturally accepted social roles. Except many people don't adhere to gender stereotypes at all and yet other people are still attracted to them.

Sexuality is a spectrum, with many (most) people falling somewhere between the extremes of only straight or gay (which is why I suspect people are getting confused about it).

Sex however is not a spectrum, it is binary, immutable and very scientifically measurable. Genetic disorders of sexuality do not change this. There is no such thing as lady brain (cognitive) or lady feelz (emotional), we are all unique and different and there is no one way to be a women other than to be born with XX chromosomes. Taking opposite sex hormones does not change your sex, nor does having cosmetic surgery. That just enables you to pretend (and deceive) in a more sophisticated way.

You can never know what it is to be the opposite sex, all you can do is imagine. And given the history (and current practice) of men subjugating and exploiting women, for men to impose their idea of what women even are on us, is nothing short of colonization and appropriation. Its offensive.

To your question OP, the only reason the protected characteristic of sex is up for grabs is because some very wealthy and powerful men want it, and have used their vast resources and power to influence culture, society and law to get what they want. I guarantee if it were only women wanting this, it would probably be illegal.

And they certainly know the truth when it matters:

A person’s gender change in the UK does not affect the descent of any peerage, dignity, or title of honor, nor the devolution by will or other instrument of any property that passes along with any peerage, dignity, or title of honor.

www.meritas.org/insight/externalarticle/primogeniture-and-inheritance-the-transgender-angle#:~:text=A%20person's%20gender%20change%20in,dignity%2C%20or%20title%20of%20honor.

TheMatriarchy · 09/03/2023 12:32

Trans is not at all similar to sexuality. In fact it completely negates sexual orientation, and reframes it as gender orientation i.e you are attracted to how a person performs sex stereotypes / clothing / femininity / masculinity / culturally accepted social roles. Except many people don't adhere to gender stereotypes at all and yet other people are still attracted to them.

Sexuality is a spectrum, with many (most) people falling somewhere between the extremes of only straight or gay (which is why I suspect people are getting confused about it).

Sex however is not a spectrum, it is binary, immutable and very scientifically measurable. Genetic disorders of sexuality do not change this. There is no such thing as lady brain (cognitive) or lady feelz (emotional), we are all unique and different and there is no one way to be a women other than to be born with XX chromosomes. Taking opposite sex hormones does not change your sex, nor does having cosmetic surgery. That just enables you to pretend (and deceive) in a more sophisticated way.

You can never know what it is to be the opposite sex, all you can do is imagine. And given the history (and current practice) of men subjugating and exploiting women, for men to impose their idea of what women even are on us, is nothing short of colonization and appropriation. Its offensive.

To your question OP, the only reason the protected characteristic of sex is up for grabs is because some very wealthy and powerful men want it, and have used their vast resources and power to influence culture, society and law to get what they want. I guarantee if it were only women wanting this, it would probably be illegal.

Bamboux · 09/03/2023 12:26

MishyJDI · 08/03/2023 10:26

Great question. Well, it's really similar to being gay, lesbian, or bi.

The claim that trans women and men insist they are and always have been biological women or men is largely an Aunt Sally. Some trans people do say this, but in my experience most talk about it in a much more nuanced way, as people whose lives have involved a voyage towards becoming the gender they have always felt or known themselves to be.

This involves physical transformation to a greater or lesser degree because without it you can't experience the societal role or be accepted as the gender you are - including, but not restricted to, who you are when you have sex.

At the root of the current wave of transphobia is an uncritical acceptance of the gender-critical, biologically determinist position, which denies that the socialisation and lived experience of gender is as real as biological sex.

Gender IS real in the same way that orientation is. Just because it's experienced cognitively, emotionally and as a relation to your body, rather than a fact about your chromosomes and what they do, doesn't mean it's less real - because if you insist it is less real, you're saying only genes matter; cognition, emotion and endocrine make-up dont. Nature -defined very narrowly - triumphs.
The opposite to nature is not 'Nurture'; that implies people become trans because of traumatic or adverse experience and is, essentially, a pathology.
To say so opens the door to saying that's why people are gay, too. What lesbians and gay men have done is to successfully propose that it doesn't matter whether sexual orientation is innate or not, 'disordered' or not: I may have been 'born this way' to some extent, as a dreamy, slightly masculine kid, but that's not the issue. The issue is that I didn't decide to be a lesbian through confusion or adversity or rebelliousness, but because I experienced a largely somatic, hormonal rush of sexual longing when I, a girl, saw other girls and not when I saw boys. I then took a decision later on to socialise those feelings by adopting an identity called Lesbian.

I do not know what it's like to be trans; I've always been OK about inhabiting a female body. But I'm prepared to believe that for trans people, the clash between their body and their nature is as visceral, as immutable, and at times as profoundly ego-dystonic as I, growing up lesbian, found my sexual orientation to be.

The only difference between me and a trans person is that my orientation to others as sexual objects didn't fit society: their orientation towards themselves as sexual subjects doesn't.

But that's as far as I'll go: I don't presume to imagine what it's like being trans. Neither should you.

You see how far we've come from dying on the hill of 'men are men and women are women and nothing can change that'? As scientists often say, I think you'll find it's more complicated than that.... But you need to read beyond these echo chambers and be open to conflicting ideas and thoughts.

So yes it is very different to claiming to be black or disabled.

Hope that gives you something to challenge the orthodoxy of these threads. :)

I do not know what it's like to be trans; I've always been OK about inhabiting a female body. But I'm prepared to believe that for trans people, the clash between their body and their nature is as visceral, as immutable, and at times as profoundly ego-dystonic [cont.]

See, I'm not religious. I am not a Cartesian. I don't believe I am an immortal soul 'inhabiting' an earthly body. I am my body. My body is me.

Believing in 'a clash between your body and your nature' is a profoundly religious, unreal, magical way of thinking. To try to prop this up with word salad doesn't make it any less so. And to invoke 'scientists' in support of such a radically anti-scientific, magical worldview just doesn't work.

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 10:13

aseriesofstillimages · 08/03/2023 22:13

Hear hear

So basically because sexism is real we should be allowed to insist we are the opposite sex, but we can’t choose our race because racism?

PorcelinaV · 09/03/2023 09:53

DeeCeeCherry · 09/03/2023 00:24

PorcelinaV
I honestly don't have a clue what point you are trying to make here

Sure you don't.

General observation, not directly to you tho as you dont understaaaaand

The Trans issue cant be discussed without 'Yeah but if I was Black' (which is NOTHING to do with Trans issues) because racism must come 1st.

The chattering on & on about Transwomen is bullshit talk used to be slyly racist, including othering Black Women. As evidenced by this thread, and the other almost similar one on another board, yapping on about Black Women yet purporting to be about self-ID/Trans concerns.

Its clear that unifying in a concerted response to Self-ID concerns isnt truly the main agenda. A gift to the Self-ID'ers you claim to be so concerned about. Womens' concerns cant and wont be taken seriously because you only 'see' 1 type of woman - the one that looks like you.

Good luck with all that.

There is nothing wrong with bringing up examples like race here. That you appear to think it's "racist" is just nuts.

SirChenjins · 09/03/2023 09:28

big issue is sex can be medically assisted into taking on the appearance of the other sex- beard, breasts, social signifiers like clothes, hair and make up

You can never change sex though, and even with these assisted additions it's easy to spot a man presenting as a woman (and vice versa) in the vast, vast majority of cases. Medical (or otherwise) assistance is not a pre-requisite of a GRC here - I can claim I feel to be a man and therefore I am (and likewise, my male husband can claim he's a woman and therefore he is). There are no guidelines or minimum standards as to what social signifiers are required - the man calling himself Kayla Lemieux is a prime example of the offensive view that some men have of women and yet he was able to go about his business (until recently) and everyone had to accept he was a woman. A man cannot identify into female oppression simply by donning a dress, and likewise a woman cannot identify of her oppression by claiming she's male - it's inherent.

My point is that I could change the colour of my skin to an extent but to get a tan and then claim I was another ethnicity would be extremely offensive and would not automatically open doors into spaces and services I was not entitled to use as a white woman.

OP posts:
Lastnamedidntstick · 09/03/2023 08:53

FrancescaContini · 09/03/2023 08:43

I don’t get it either, OP. There are plenty of things I would love to “identify as” but hey, we don’t always get our own way in life, do we 🤷‍♀️?

It’s been shown that trans men do get some of the advantages of male privilege- better pay etc, once they transition.

I’d be very supportive of any minority woman that felt like identifying as a white male. Or even black teenage males identifying as white, would that stop police racial profiles?

big issue is sex can be medically assisted into taking on the appearance of the other sex- beard, breasts, social signifiers like clothes, hair and make up.

racial transition can only really work one way- a white person could with extreme sun exposure and certain medications darken their skin, dye hair etc, and possibly pass for a different ethnicity. Or mixed race at least. As far as I’m aware of you have black skin there’s not a lot you can do to appear white, so there’s no identifying out of your oppression, as you’ll always be seen as the colour of your skin.

Chersfrozenface · 09/03/2023 08:48

I think some posters are misunderstanding the thread title.

FrancescaContini · 09/03/2023 08:44

I mean: I don’t understand why, as per your original question in your OP.

Your most recent post - yes, I understand what you’re saying. Sorry 😆

FrancescaContini · 09/03/2023 08:43

I don’t get it either, OP. There are plenty of things I would love to “identify as” but hey, we don’t always get our own way in life, do we 🤷‍♀️?

Ndd135632 · 09/03/2023 08:41

SirChenjins · 09/03/2023 08:27

Explain it to me in simple terms please @DeeCeeCherry - or get one of your colleagues with their dropped jaws to please, because I am not getting this.

I am a white middle aged British woman living in Scotland and I am not disabled. I can legally claim to be a man (I am not a man) in my country because I 'feel' that I am a man and that's absolutely fine according to my Govt and many TRAs. My white middle aged husband for example can claim to be a woman (he is not a woman) because he 'feels' he is a woman and again, according to my Govt and many TRAs that's absolutely fine. On that basis, we can access services and spaces for the sex that we are not.

I cannot claim that I am another ethnicity or colour (rightly so, because I am not) simply because I 'feel' I am and therefore cannot access services or spaces for the ethnicity or colour that I am not (again, rightly so because I am not). To attempt to do so would be offensive and I would (rightly) be challenged vociferously.

I cannot claim I am disabled as per the same.

Why is one set of feelz OK while others are not? Why does one set of feelings give one sex the right to access single sex services and spaces of the opposite sex, but other protected characteristics remain (rightly) protected?

Maybe I am a bit dense but I don’t get this either. Would love to have this explained.

Boiledbeetle · 09/03/2023 08:39

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex

98,174 signatures less than 2000 to go

SirChenjins · 09/03/2023 08:27

Explain it to me in simple terms please @DeeCeeCherry - or get one of your colleagues with their dropped jaws to please, because I am not getting this.

I am a white middle aged British woman living in Scotland and I am not disabled. I can legally claim to be a man (I am not a man) in my country because I 'feel' that I am a man and that's absolutely fine according to my Govt and many TRAs. My white middle aged husband for example can claim to be a woman (he is not a woman) because he 'feels' he is a woman and again, according to my Govt and many TRAs that's absolutely fine. On that basis, we can access services and spaces for the sex that we are not.

I cannot claim that I am another ethnicity or colour (rightly so, because I am not) simply because I 'feel' I am and therefore cannot access services or spaces for the ethnicity or colour that I am not (again, rightly so because I am not). To attempt to do so would be offensive and I would (rightly) be challenged vociferously.

I cannot claim I am disabled as per the same.

Why is one set of feelz OK while others are not? Why does one set of feelings give one sex the right to access single sex services and spaces of the opposite sex, but other protected characteristics remain (rightly) protected?

OP posts:
Happylittlechicken · 09/03/2023 05:19

Oh are the women criticising gender identity. Being called racist again? The day must end in a Y. @DeeCeeCherry do you have any problem with the gender ideologists claiming if black womens can be women then males can be women? Because that is one of their arguments. “Transwomen are women If black womxn are women”. Now THAT is racist and othering. Do you find that offensive? If not, why not?

Swipe left for the next trending thread