Indecent exposure and Jordan Gray on Radio 4

BaronMunchausen · 2023-03-07T08:52:39+00:00

The Today presenter (Justin Webb?) on Radio 4 has just aired the connection between indecent exposure and gender ideology. While interviewing a Labour MP about the cultural acceptance of indecent exposure, he said that a lot of women were very offended when Jordan Gray stripped off on Channel 4, but Ofcom said it was ok and Channel 4 was “actually rather proud of it”. The MP kept to generalities, but it was good to hear. Radio 4 will doubtless be inundated with complaints, but other listeners (at least those who remember Jordan Grey) will perhaps understand the implications of the demand that trans identifying males be given unfettered access to women's safe spaces.

Chersfrozenface · 09/03/2023 10:13

My definition of 'prude' in current usage = having valid boundaries.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/03/2023 10:11

BaronMunchausen · 08/03/2023 21:57

The Independent has seen fit to mark International Women's Day with a bunch of bollox by Grey telling everyone what a woman is.

His definition of "woman" is that women are "infinitely more strong" than a man. And "a woman’s rights can never be taken away". Meanwhile, he keeps "a stiff upper lip, while my human rights are disputed by billionaires".

God, all that crap to pretend that he’s a woman

lots of women aren’t particularly strong, they don’t have ‘the electromagnetic quantum power of Captain Marvel coursing through her being.’

but they’re still women. Because of the kind of body they were born with

what a twonk

suzyscat · 09/03/2023 07:31

Given that marital rape was legal until 1991 I think the pill did do a lot for women. Also that it's entirely possible to be a so called 'prude' and enjoy consensual sex. But I totally agree that the idea that women can have it all frequently means they can have double the workload, less pay and are expected to have a career, and children, be judged by prospect employers but late 20s / 30s as a risk and then judged again for not having kids, and that households are now expected to run on two full time salaries.

That said, sunlight sunlight sunlight. This morning I feel joy and hope. There's a long path to go but I do feel the tide is turning. Slowly and the path is long.

LK1972 · 08/03/2023 22:21

Rightsraptor · 07/03/2023 16:11

I agree with Julie Bindel on this, @LK1972 because it's so easy to be mocked for 'modesty'. It shouldn't be but it is. It is seemingly 'old fashioned', so anyone objecting to cocks in public can be easily dismissed as belonging to a bygone era. The penis is for urination and sexual acts. So if a dick is on display, it's reasonable to assume one of those 2 functions is about to happen. Neither is socially acceptable in public in our society.

We tend to ignore the harm done by the penis - no doubt it upsets men to be confronted by that. The unwanted pregnancies with the serious, possibly fatal, consequences for women, disease, tissue damage. Angela Rayner recently idiotically implied it doesn't matter whether it's a penis or an object that's forced into a female body. Wrong, Angela. It does matter.

Getting people to understand that it's about safety and not modesty I think is a strategic & necessary move. People need to understand that it's not funny for a man to expose himself and that what motivates such men is very unpleasant indeed. And why women have (and should have) such a primal response to men exposing their genitals in public.

I'm all for reclaiming words such as prude and modesty myself. I'm done with making myself easily available to men in some spirit of equality. But I am actually rather too old now! I'll be encouraging my DGD to value herself very highly.

Thanks for replying, and sorry for slightly derailing this thread, but I remember being a teenager and being somewhat coerced into things I didn't really want to do with the same 'are you a prude then' bollocks. And that was a while back! So I can see JB's (and yours) point, but still think there's nothing really wrong with modesty.

Sure, it feels old-fashioned (probably since the 60's !), but the older I get the more I wonder if the pill and the sexual revolution have really done women a favour, so to speak, in many ways. Sorry if this is not very articulate, still trying to form coherent opinion on this.

But generally, never wish to see a stranger's cock in particular, even if not particularly threatened by the situation or on tv, why would anyone?

Original poster

BaronMunchausen · 08/03/2023 21:57

The Independent has seen fit to mark International Women's Day with a bunch of bollox by Grey telling everyone what a woman is.

His definition of "woman" is that women are "infinitely more strong" than a man. And "a woman’s rights can never be taken away". Meanwhile, he keeps "a stiff upper lip, while my human rights are disputed by billionaires".

OP posts:

Abhannmor · 08/03/2023 14:16

nauticant · 07/03/2023 09:37

Webb held senior BBC roles in the US from 2001 to 2009. He fell in love with the country and over time came to the view that the BBC was anti-American. He returned to the UK in 2009 seemingly with a strong dislike of identity politics and my assumption is that he saw what it was doing to the US and was dreading what it was going to do to the UK.

I remember his fan boy reports from Washington. They were sometimes a bit jarring as his adopted country bombed and tortured its way around the globe in that period

Yes , he had a ringside seat at the rise of ID politics and was not impressed. I wonder if he has likewise fallen out of love with gun ownership, which he defended back then.

But , any port in a storm I suppose. He seems harder to dislodge than eg Jenni Murray?

PatatiPatatras · 08/03/2023 04:19

One minute it's "why are you thinking of genitals" the next it is "those genitals were legally out"!
And "These genitals are not the same as the cis genitals."
There's definitely one group dictating who should see what and consent doesn't even come into the question.

BoreOfWhabylon · 07/03/2023 18:26

I love Justin, he's a stalwart defender of women and girls.
I just listened to the item and there was no mention of Grey being trans though, just "a comedian", so if you didn't know, you wouldn't know. Was it edited out?

Rightsraptor · 07/03/2023 16:11

I agree with Julie Bindel on this, @LK1972 because it's so easy to be mocked for 'modesty'. It shouldn't be but it is. It is seemingly 'old fashioned', so anyone objecting to cocks in public can be easily dismissed as belonging to a bygone era. The penis is for urination and sexual acts. So if a dick is on display, it's reasonable to assume one of those 2 functions is about to happen. Neither is socially acceptable in public in our society.

We tend to ignore the harm done by the penis - no doubt it upsets men to be confronted by that. The unwanted pregnancies with the serious, possibly fatal, consequences for women, disease, tissue damage. Angela Rayner recently idiotically implied it doesn't matter whether it's a penis or an object that's forced into a female body. Wrong, Angela. It does matter.

Getting people to understand that it's about safety and not modesty I think is a strategic & necessary move. People need to understand that it's not funny for a man to expose himself and that what motivates such men is very unpleasant indeed. And why women have (and should have) such a primal response to men exposing their genitals in public.

I'm all for reclaiming words such as prude and modesty myself. I'm done with making myself easily available to men in some spirit of equality. But I am actually rather too old now! I'll be encouraging my DGD to value herself very highly.

nauticant · 07/03/2023 16:00

It could encourage a very interesting debate in the BBC. Imagine if it resulted in them feeling obliged to say, in the present climate, that some forms of indecent exposure should be applauded.

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 15:54

A man is a man

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 15:54

A penis is a penis

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 15:53

It's a very valid point

nauticant · 07/03/2023 15:53

I expect some complaints will be going into the BBC over Justin Webb's comment. It's going to be really interesting to see if they go anywhere.

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 15:48

Who also incidentally called jimmy savile out iirc years before he was

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 15:48

Who is known to get his dick out and audiences go knowing this can happen

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 15:47

Well that comedian got completely slated at the Edinburgh festival

Chersfrozenface · 07/03/2023 15:29

Would it be accepted if a non-trans male performer did what Gray did?

nauticant · 07/03/2023 14:26

Very strong polarisation on Twitter with many wanting Gray to be above criticism:

twitter.com/search?q=%22jordan%20gray%22%20until%3A2023-03-09%20since%3A2023-03-07&src=typed_query&f=live

BitOutOfPractice · 07/03/2023 14:03

The victim statement / testimony (sorry not sure which and not sure I can bring myself to read the grim reports again) of the woman cyclist who Wayne Couzens exposed himself to was absolutely chilling and heart breaking. It should be imprinted on the minds of every police officer and policy maker forever more.

oldwomanwhoruns · 07/03/2023 13:56

InterestingUsernameTBC · 07/03/2023 11:07

I asked our Chief Superintendent about whether it would be considered indecent exposure if a man who identifies as a woman exposed their penis in a women's changing room.

Firstly the example was edited to: "a scenario where someone who was male to female transgender entered female public changing rooms and what if any offences would take place."

And then they said this:

Generally in law there needs to be an action which is a constituent element of a crime together with a knowledge or intention of wrongdoing. By way of example Exposure under s66 Sexual Offences Act 2003 requires the prosecution to prove that there was an intention to cause harassment alarm or distress.

In the scenario provided, police (and CPS) would need to be satisfied of this intention. The simple presence of this person in the changing room would not constitute an offence. Perhaps a contrast is in changing rooms generally people expose themselves (in the act of getting changed) this doesn't mean that everyone who uses public changing rooms automatically commits an offence. It is also of note that the person (male to female transgender) also has rights, there are a number of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights which would require careful consideration. What is clear is that societal changes have not caught up and where some buildings have gender neutral facilities not all do.

That is so chilling. '...also has rights'????? Like, the rights for a man to go into a women's single sex changing room? What is your Chief Superintendent ON? Has he been trained by Stonewall??

MoltenLasagne · 07/03/2023 13:50

EnfysPreseli · 07/03/2023 13:41

It's not as if it's unknown for sex offenders to use environments where some casual exposure or nudity happens for unsavoury purposes.

Well exactly, the first step always has an element of plausible deniability. It's only when flasher escalate that they move to riskier locations.

EnfysPreseli · 07/03/2023 13:41

It's not as if it's unknown for sex offenders to use environments where some casual exposure or nudity happens for unsavoury purposes.

EnfysPreseli · 07/03/2023 13:39

I don't think it's fair to describe it as 'accepted'. It's more that society feels that it has to tolerate it because of Gray's trans identity. Anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with it knows that they will be censured for objecting. I'm sure a lot of the laughter when he did it was nervous laughter rather than accepting or condoning what he was doing.

rioseco · 07/03/2023 13:20

The discussions were primarily about Couzens but Gray was held up as an example of 'accepted' exposure.