Any CofE members around here - LLF response

It needs a voice and we need to take action! There are two GC gs members on this thread and countless others who can influence. What should we be focusing on? I am very shocked aboht some of the things I have read on this thread and we need to change things before it is too late.

Hmm. I might know the odd person with the ear of the bishop. Perhaps I'll sound them out.

@HappyJellyBaby 'we have unisex toilets so no particular issues to grapple with.' more likely vulnerable women and child abuse victims just don't attend again, especially if the church isn't even checking the loos for hidden cameras.

@AnotherGSmemberif you are the woman who was filmed asking the Bishop this then thank you.

I'm not in the CofE (I'm in an Anglican Communion church). I read the LLF material and was a bit disappointed. I'm pro-SSM just because it seems to be right, and was hoping for a stronger theological justification for it. I didn't see that in LLF and I'm sure that wasn't for want of trying.

I was left with the impression that the senior leadership of the CofE got so massively burned over the issue of gay rights generally that it doesn't trust its instincts on trans rights and wants just to uncritically affirm them.

@Nina2023 I hadn't heard of that

I agree with @Allthegoodnamesarechosen that the idea of trans being a sacred journey is very concerning, particularly when it comes to children and how do we then treat detransitioners.

I'm a GC CofE. Nothing about LLF in our church yet. Might chat to our vicar.

I'm also on General Synod, am conservative in my theology and also gender critical (and not in the way that some have characterised here as being unable to accept gender non conformity - I'm actually pretty non conforming myself). The current proposed 'conclusion' of the LLF process is likely to cause a massive split and disruption in the Church of England, so issues around transgender ideology may just get forgotten about whilst the church is dealing with that.

My observation would be that most of the bishops have not been paying any attention to gender identity or those issues. That is how the transgender reaffirmation of baptism vows prayers got through. Most of those involved thought it was nothing other than quietly being kind for a very very few people.

At Synod in February I spoke to the bishop who had to answer the question about the schools transgender bullying guidance which uses the phrase 'sex assigned at birth'. He had obviously paid very little attention to it and had no idea why the CofE was using that terminology. I think that, like schools, the CofE has been Stonewalled about the trans issue because nobody was paying attention.

Bishops are very busy and often assume that those who have written anything for them will have done so professionally. I will work with all my might to ensure that those who write any further guidance will not be allowed to get away with sloppy thinking about sex and gender.

Yes. This worries me. A priest's job involves counselling the bereaved and sitting with the dying among other things. If I'm thinking of the same person you are, who seems to be rather self obsessed, I would not want that person with my elderly mother.

Given what it says in Psalm 139 about being fearfully and wonderfully made I can’t understand anyone of faith subscribing to gender affirmation. I know that gay people were born gay. But people are not born in the wrong body or sex. That is dysphoria and an over emphasis on gender stereotyping.

We didn’t discuss the T at our LLF course. No one really wanted to go there I felt. It was all very shallow and pointless tbh.

What about detransitioners? Is there a service for them? Do they need to go through one, if they went through the affirmation service?

Are you sure? It sounds standard practice of getting it in on the coattails of something else hoping people don’t notice.

the pastoral guidance also says priests should use coerced speech/ wrong sex pronouns.
quote from guidance
' the preference of a transgender person in respect of their
name and gendered (or other) pronouns'

Even though it conflicts with belief in reality and the freedom of belief and speech of everyone else present.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

Here's the pastoral guidance for clergy:
www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2018-12/Pastoral%20Guidance-Affirmation-Baptismal-Faith.pdf

the service
www.churchofengland.org/prayer-and-worship/worship-texts-and-resources/common-worship/christian-initiation/rites#mm047

and the press release
www.churchofengland.org/news-and-media/news-and-statements/guidance-welcoming-transgender-people-published

You will see the press release falsely states the writers (all transwomen ) 'consulted widely' with those affected-but this did not include the groups representing transwidows, children of transitioners, families of teens who say they are trans, or female victims of trans identified abuse, many of whom would in any case be unable to speak freely to such a biassed male trio.

The Cof E is totally blinkered on this.

How can we safeguard our young lesbian girls if we give them a better welcome as boys? If we can't show affirmation for gay teens, but we are encouraged to affirm trans identifying teens, what is that doing?!

Two troubling posts.

As a parent of a trans-identifying person, I’m also concerned about this. I haven’t seen any guidance; actually it’s news to me that such a thing as an ‘affirming trans people’ service exists. If my child were to darken the doors of my church, I hope my child would be welcomed and not judged - but I would not be happy with any church affirmation. Gender ideology comes out of queer theory, which appears very questionable to me.

name changed for this.

A friend of mine is a female (gay) vicar and wrote to the safeguarding team to raise concerns about the safeguarding of women and children due to the 'Affirming transpeople' service and guidance. As you may know it tells vicars to gaslight congregations about sex and safeguarding in the 'affirmation' service as far as possible, and no GRC is required- it's self ID. It was written by 3 male priests who identify as women in the COfE, with no input from transwidows, children of transitioners, or female victims of sexual assault and rape by trans offenders- all of whom are represented in church congregations across the UK if they haven't already self excluded.

The response from the CofE safeguarding team, which I have seen, is shocking. It's effectively be kind and shut up- the CofE prefers the male kind of women to the female kind. It's revolting.
if you haven't seen the guidance, please advise and will upload if I can...

It’s definitely not just local to you. How money works in the CofE is extremely complicated but under the current regime at Lambeth there certainly have been central grants available to snazzy new ‘plants’ that tend to be of a charismatic evangelical stripe and often conservative on women’s issues and sexuality. Unfortunately. Also, it’s generally accepted that these haven’t had the ‘success’ in terms of outreach that was hoped for, or if they have, it’s very short-term. Certainly many of us think that many struggling ‘ordinary’ parishes could have put much of that money to better effect.

Related issue that concerns me- in my area conservative evangelical churches appear to be getting more central funding. They are doing lots of really good outreach, but seem to be a bit complementarian, conservative view of marriage etc.
It bothers me that small parish churches who do great work on a show string aren't supported in the same way as these plants. However that could be just a local to me issue!

Another name changer for this.

I’m not a member of General Synod but I am in a relatively senior position in the CofE. I agree with the analysis above that this has become very tribal: you’re either a conservative who is both anti same sex relationships and also doesn’t think people can chance sex, OR you’re a liberal who is uncritically pro both SSM and genderism.

I am another one who is absolutely pro SSM and also GC so we do exist. I speak out where I can, quietly. We welcome trans people in my church and we also attend and support local Pride events but I am clear in my own head I do this out of care and love for the people concerned and not because I agree with all the views expressed. I would also speak up in an instant if there were safeguarding issues (eg access to toilets or changing spaces) but there haven’t been.

Of course there isn’t one view of sexual morality that is ‘biblical’ as someone above (and many conservatives) are trying to argue. I am completely content that the Christian faith can encompass same sex relationships and I’m certainly not alone in this.

The person who said we’ve had same sex marriage in the CofE for years because we will marry people who’ve ‘transitioned’ to a new gender is absolutely correct. The guidance is that we can marry people if they’ve got a GRC (so, eg, we could allow what is in effect a lesbian marriage if one of the women has a GRC and has transitioned to male) and this has been the case for several years. There is a conscience clause for clergy in that an individual cleric can refuse to perform such a ceremony on the basis of conscience - but when I queried this I was told this would be very hard to enact because a) there’s a very strong right in common law for people to get married in their parish church, and b) you might suspect someone is trans but you aren’t allowed to insist on seeing a GRC, and if they have a passport in their acquired gender, well… I’m not aware of any cases where this has been an issue (which doesn’t mean there haven’t been any) but there’s a clear difficulty there.

In summary, it’s a mess. I’m throwing my weight, such as it is, behind the liberals on LLF because I so want to see same sex relationships properly welcomed and blessed, and ideally then for this to be a step towards full equal marriage in the CofE. However, I am also trying to find ways to highlight the safeguarding and feminist issues raised by genderism. I do think that they will actually quietly percolate through. Often the CofE is behind wider society on such issues, and with the tide turning in wider society hopefully it’ll also happen here soon. I certainly know I’m not the only one on the liberal side with, at the least, misgivings about genderism.

I haven't been back to church since Covid, & there was no mention of this stuff then. I'm alarmed at what I've seen on twitter: drag queens in churches, 'Progress' flags draped over altars, etc. That seems totally innappropriate. Yes, everyone should be & feel welcome, but that doesn't mean being allowed to take over or to act with disrespect.

I wondered about raising LLF at PCC, and have referred to it as an ongoing discussion in sermons. No one wants to unpack it any further.

We are able to avoid the issue as we have one liberal part time priest and one almost certainly conservative evangelical priest (across several churches), so we can cover any requests.

We've recently welcomed a lesbian mum who has had very painful experiences with church in the past. It's taken her a long while to trust us, and I'm very anxious we don't mess that up!

It's interesting, I understand some people think it's sinful but they are so much more vocal about that sin- which hurts no one and impacts on none except themselves- than about the other sins like being judgemental, greedy and selfish which impact pretty much everyone else. I wish we all dedicated ourselves to eradicating and judging all the sins with as much energy as is aimed at this. Actually I don't. We'd be pretty darn uncomfortable and have no time for all the beneficial things we do!

And having talked to lots of highly educated and trained people, there is no single 'biblical view'. If there were, there'd be no discussion at all. If the theologists who spend their lives studying the bible can't agree, that means there is no consensus in the Bible.

I'm concerned that the CoE endorses a grown male parish priest who posts pictures of himself dressed like a teenage girl on social media.

This is common sense, it's a bit weird. Parish priests by all means dress as you like, but in private. They are doing a holistic kind of job are they not and publicly putting out stuff like that really undermines their role.

Sorry slightly off topic but it shows this stuff is there already and being unchallenged, at least seemingly.

Our church has been pretty silent on these topics in terms of sermons etc. it’s clear they want to steer clear of controversy. The conversations can be had after the service but it is pretty disappointing to be honest. However I understand it is a difficult situation for the clergy too.

I am currently a CoE regular attendee, which I am debating at present as I see what’s happening as However having spoken with our vicar I am slightly comforted by his biblical views. In my 30s and became a Christian in my 20s.

In the latest synod discussions it’s clear to me that the CoE has moved away from teaching the Bible to pander to the very strong and loud popular culture, which quite simply contradicts what is in the Bible.

Sexual immorality (ie sex outside of marriage), marriage being between one man and one woman for life, and there being 2 sexes are absolutely crystal clear in the Bible. When the established Church moves away from these teachings unfortunately it no longer represents the Bible and the Bible is no longer ultimate authority. The church can then just make it up as it goes along. The Culture is constantly changing, God’s word is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

In essence quite simply the Bible clearly states that marriage is between one man and one woman for life so why would the church teach otherwise? Surely that is heresy. It violates the principles of the Bible and the establishment.

I believe a church should be a welcoming inclusive place for all, however it should absolutely not ‘ bless ‘sin or redefine marriage or redefine gender.

But it’s important to say we are all sinners in church, none of us are perfect. (People are just hyperfocused on sex.)

To give an example if I was having sex outside of marriage I would not expect a ‘blessing’ from my vicar about this behaviour. We are all falling short of God’s standard, this is the crux of the gospel and good news of Jesus, His love and His Grace. however the Church should still teach the ultimate truth on God’s standard - ie that sex is for inside marriage as defined in the Bible.

In fact if I were leading a life of ‘sin’ I would hope for loving truth which is there to help you to recognise the error of your ways and steer you to the ‘narrow way’ ie the more difficult path of following Jesus, which yes can involve sacrifice but is ultimately for us to thrive as God’s people. People need truth now more than ever in this fragmented broken world where there is so much confusion and therefore I am disappointed how confused the church has become over this issue when it is very clear for anyone from the
Bible.