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Original poster

Any CofE members around here - LLF response

141 replies

PCCmember · 02/03/2023 21:27

Long time mumsnet user (and FWR lurker) who has NC for this post.

Is anyone currently grappling with the outcome of the Living in Love and Faith process? Despite the sub-heading of LLF of "identity, sexuality, relationships and marriage", almost the entirety of the Bishops' response (available here: www.churchofengland.org/resources/living-love-and-faith/bishops-response-living-love-and-faith) - and the corresponding media reports - is about the new prayers that will be developed that can be used to bless same sex marriages/partnerships.

The question of " identity" got a one-paragraph address where they basically said how awful the debates on social media were and committed to church to "listening". I found this response quite hurtful to be honest; that legitimate safeguarding concerns regarding women's prisons, women's sports, women's single sex spaces are just dismissed as debates on social media. And they've had 6 years to listen! It's almost like the church has swallowed the language of Stonewall (they talk a lot about LGBTQIA+), but actually what they are really talking about most of the time is LGB and this makes me worried about unintended consequences of what they are trying to do.

If anyone is within a C of E church - how are these discussions playing out in your church at the moment? Ours is pretty focused on same sex marriage/blessing. I appreciate that many posters on here may not be Christians and may not have a positive view of the church, but I am particularly interested in hearing from other church members if there are any about here.

OP posts:
Synodmember · 08/03/2023 07:52

Already a win!

Sausagenbacon · 08/03/2023 07:09

That's great news Nina

picklemewalnuts · 08/03/2023 07:02

@Nina2023 !! ShockShock

Nina2023 · 08/03/2023 06:47

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Niminy · 06/03/2023 09:55

PotteringPondering · 05/03/2023 22:27

And a post-op trans woman in a senior diocesan position, with responsibilities in the national Church.

TBH I feel considerably more sympathetic to this person than to biologically intact male priests who dress as women.

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How would anyone know the difference between a post-op transwoman and a male priest dressing as a woman? As I understand it part of the gender ideology agenda has been to erase the difference between the two. There are influential trans women/trans-identified men in the CofE, and they have a considerable platform.

picklemewalnuts · 06/03/2023 06:14

I'm surprised! For all sorts of reasons.

PotteringPondering · 05/03/2023 22:27

poshme · 05/03/2023 22:18

@picklemewalnuts there are several trans priests in charge of parishes.

And a post-op trans woman in a senior diocesan position, with responsibilities in the national Church.

TBH I feel considerably more sympathetic to this person than to biologically intact male priests who dress as women.

poshme · 05/03/2023 22:18

@picklemewalnuts there are several trans priests in charge of parishes.

Original poster
PCCmember · 05/03/2023 21:35

TomPinch · 05/03/2023 18:41

It might have seemed quick in the C of E but it was a long time coming. The NZ Anglicans, for example, began ordaining women in the 1970s.

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It was indeed a very long time coming. The first women to actually be ordained to the Anglican Priesthood was the Rev. Florence Li Tim-Oi in 1944! womensordinationcampaign.org/blog-working-for-womens-equality-and-ordination-in-the-catholic-church/2020/1/25/rev-florence-li-tim-oi-first-woman-ordained-in-anglican-communion
However she had to resign her license after the war, although she never renounced her holy orders.

OP posts:
Original poster
PCCmember · 05/03/2023 21:31

Wow! I have just returned from a weekend away and have seen that we're up to 5 pages in this thread. I feel a lot less alone than a did a week ago. I didn't think that I'd get that many replies at all (or they'd all be in the vein of the one negative PP). Thanks all!

Catching up on some great responses:

Thank you so so much @Synodmember and @AnotherGSmember (and anyone else that I've missed) for all that you've done and planned to do to push this at General Synod. It sounds like the July synod will be a key meeting (not the least because also - I believe - the draft blessing prayers will be discussed/approved and the matter of whether same sex sexual activities are sinful or not - which the February synod did not discuss). Here is where I show almost my complete ignorance at how synod works - what do we need to do to push this issue to ensure that it is not pushed under the carpet again, and is actually discussed properly?

@Nina2023 - I am horrified! I hadn't actually seen that guidance and I had no idea that things had actually gone that far without any discussion!

@picklemewalnuts my DD is at of C of E school. The school isn't affiliated with my church - it's affiliated with the neighbouring parish which is Anglo-Catholic and more liberal. That being said, I'm not aware of any issues of this kind within the school.

@Shelefttheweb I completely agree, and that is part of my problem in this huge mess (as I see it). My church is evangelical, but not conservative evangelical (i.e we are in favour of women's ordination). The previous vicar as I say was very against SSM, however the congregation are divided with strong feelings on either side. Our church is one of the more "successful" churches and certainly seems to be thriving especially given that we're within a vacancy (and especially compared to a neighbouring parish - not the school parish, another one - who is also within a vacancy but really struggling and is more progressive/liberal in theology). FWIW, I thought that the Bishops' response was a really badly argued one with an almost complete lack of scriptural justification which left many questions unanswered and I'm not sure if I can go along with/separate out the SSM issue from the appalling silence, and worse than that - acquisition in silencing those who raise legitimate concerns regarding safeguarding and women's rights.

@Nina2023 again - absolutely brilliant questions!

In short, yes I am very interesting in being part of a GC CofE network/action/discussion group!

OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 05/03/2023 19:53

I hadn't thought about it that way, Tom, but at a local level it went from 'there's a debate in the church about women being ordained' to every second church having a female Vicar within a generation. I missed most of that as I wasn't a regular at the time. It wasn't even discussed during my theology degree, as I remember. And DS was surprised 20 years ago, to know that men could be vicars.

picklemewalnuts · 05/03/2023 19:50

I don't think anyone is asking you to take it seriously Tuk.

TomPinch · 05/03/2023 19:42

Tukmgru · 05/03/2023 19:40

It’s hard to take this thread even vaguely seriously when you are followers of a religion that remains at the forefront, globally, of oppressing women and gay people.

You might think you’re all Progressive because COE itself is all tea-and-crumpets, but the global Anglican community is a hotbed of misogyny and homophobia.

Thanks for letting us know.

Tukmgru · 05/03/2023 19:40

It’s hard to take this thread even vaguely seriously when you are followers of a religion that remains at the forefront, globally, of oppressing women and gay people.

You might think you’re all Progressive because COE itself is all tea-and-crumpets, but the global Anglican community is a hotbed of misogyny and homophobia.

Xenia · 05/03/2023 19:23

This is the linke but I just saw it by chance, I am Catholic not C of E and not really following all this stuff so it may not be a good or bad video - it just seemed to explain one point of view quite well

Sausagenbacon · 05/03/2023 19:16

Have you got a link Xenia?

TomPinch · 05/03/2023 18:41

picklemewalnuts · 05/03/2023 18:11

Yes, excellent questions.

We managed to survive women clergy, which I'd argue was as radical as same sex marriage at the time.
I think the speed with which all but the truest diehards embraced women was evidence of the rightness of that decision.
I wonder if we just need another decade for same sex marriage to be accepted.

It's shocking to me, that trans priests are accepted quickly.
Though I suspect they have a boundaries ministry- associate priest or similar- rather than a parish. Could be wrong.

It might have seemed quick in the C of E but it was a long time coming. The NZ Anglicans, for example, began ordaining women in the 1970s.

Shelefttheweb · 05/03/2023 18:24

'For if a preest be foul, on whom we truste,
No wonder is a lewed man to ruste'

Chaucer

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 05/03/2023 18:20

picklemewalnuts · 05/03/2023 18:11

Yes, excellent questions.

We managed to survive women clergy, which I'd argue was as radical as same sex marriage at the time.
I think the speed with which all but the truest diehards embraced women was evidence of the rightness of that decision.
I wonder if we just need another decade for same sex marriage to be accepted.

It's shocking to me, that trans priests are accepted quickly.
Though I suspect they have a boundaries ministry- associate priest or similar- rather than a parish. Could be wrong.

I think the fragrant Bingo is the vicar of the Children's Church in Liverpool.

Just let that sink in for a few minutes.

Shelefttheweb · 05/03/2023 18:13

How does this square with:
Thou shalt not bear false witness
and
Thou shalt not covet?

picklemewalnuts · 05/03/2023 18:11

Yes, excellent questions.

We managed to survive women clergy, which I'd argue was as radical as same sex marriage at the time.
I think the speed with which all but the truest diehards embraced women was evidence of the rightness of that decision.
I wonder if we just need another decade for same sex marriage to be accepted.

It's shocking to me, that trans priests are accepted quickly.
Though I suspect they have a boundaries ministry- associate priest or similar- rather than a parish. Could be wrong.

Xenia · 05/03/2023 18:07

A lot of the C of E has been as woke left as it comes for years sadly...... the church might well split over the marriage issue however. It split from my church in the 1500s. I saw a very good video on youtube today about LFF thing and one church breaking away.

Niminy · 05/03/2023 18:03

@Nina2023 these are absolutely excellent questions. As I recall, the only pushback against this liturgy came from conservative evangelicals.

Nina2023 · 05/03/2023 13:51

also questions on the CofE transgender guidance for clergy
www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2018-12/Pastoral%20Guidance-Affirmation-Baptismal-Faith.pdf
the service
-the needs of women and children were not considered by the trans identified male writers, the CofE needs to use an independent safeguarding expert to consult widely on it, and ask questions like

1- should female clergy who may have experienced rape or sexual assault themselves, including by trans identified males, be required to pretend male members of the congregation, (whether or not they are sex offenders) are female?
2- The guidance states clergy should keep someone's birth sex secret if the transperson so wishes- no reference to a GRC (which most transpeople don't have anyway) . How will clergy be required to manage this eg as the Gender Recognition Act confirms men with the PC of gender reassignment, with a GRC remain the 'father' to their children, and those without (most) are men in law as well as in reality?
3-What are the safeguarding implications of a policy that pretends a man is a woman in a church, by nature communal, for example for women and children in the congregation, including those who have experienced abuse, including from trans identified males? How will it create a safe environment for victims to speak up about abuse?
4- what is the impact of this gaslighting and coerced speech on freedom of speech, belief in reality and christian belief for clergy and congregation?
5- given the Cass review and social contagion concerns, what guidance is there for the transgender person on their 'testimony' which the guidance encourages should be shared?
6- Given that the government has specifically refused to legalise 'self ID' and ensured only those with a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria can get a GRC, partly to ensure men with sexual paraphilias (eg autogynephilia) cannot be eligible, why has the Cof E chosen self ID and decided male sexual fetsihes / paraphilias should now be 'celebrated' (quote from guidance) in parish churches?
7- will members of the congregation be banned from church if they cannot pretend men are women, or refuse to be coerced into taking part in male sexual fetishes or pretending to believe in gender ideology?
8- Many churches are making toilets mixed sex. Will the CofE be producing guidance (eg how to check for hidden cameras in toilets to protect women ) for churches and what consideration has been given to women and abuse victims who are unable to attend church events if there are no female only loos?
9- the guidance states how powerful it can be for new names to be recognised in the affirmation service. Will this privilege also be offered to others or is it just for transpeople? eg women fleeing abusive partners who have to change their names for safety eg from stalking, those in witness protection programmes, sex offenders who want to change their names to hide their crimes, children who want to disassociate themselves from offending trans identified fathers? (These are all examples from the last 20 years of parish life).
10- will there be a new service for detransitioners?

and that's just a few...

creekingmillenial · 05/03/2023 12:10

Synodmember · 05/03/2023 10:10

So does anyone know what sensible guidance looks like? Which specific policies should we be commenting on/ looking at or is there anything more general we should be offering them?

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I’d suggest they need to look at some of the resources in safe schools alliance and consider how it might apply to churches. So, for example, trans woman youth volunteers/workers shouldn’t be supervising girls in areas where it would be inappropriate for a man to, for example overnight or whilst changing. Trans women shouldn’t be meeting vulnerable women alone for prayer/pastoral care, especially in homes.
Kids workers and volunteers should understand that NHS doesn’t advise social transitioning without medical advice as this isn’t a neutral act and so should be advising parents who want to do this to seek advice.
Parish safeguarding officers should know that having a protected characteristic (applying to those who have had a legal change in sex) doesn’t make you exempt from all the normal safeguarding practices and they should be concerned by anyone bringing sexually inappropriate content to children, teens or vulnerable adults regardless of their gender identity.