Page 2 | Scotland turning into a banana republic without the bananas as they "elect" the next El Presidente

lechiffre55 · 2023-03-01T14:37:52+00:00

Just read this and my mind is blown. It's like reading about a South American dictatorship running "elections" to re-elect El Presidente beloved of the people! https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-days-of-saigon/ The first link in that article "last night’s article on Craig Murray’s site" makes my heart sink to read. Over the years I have really softened to the idea of Scottish Independance. If the Scots think they are better of going it alone, then who are we to interfere? But the blatant corruption and utter lack of democracy in Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality. It's an utter travesty what's happening, and a complete betrayal of the Scottish people. Can whisky even be made from bananas?

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 12:55

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 12:37

SNP+Greens

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True, very true. Any oppression is not coming from Westminster.

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 12:37

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 12:15

Tell us how Scotland is being oppressed.

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SNP+Greens

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 12:33

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 12:15

Tell us how Scotland is being oppressed.

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It isn't.

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 12:15

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 11:52

I'm not in favour of independence but I have a real issue with this statement:
starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country.
This attitude has brrn used for hundreds of years to oppress others.

Tell us how Scotland is being oppressed.

DemiColon · 03/03/2023 12:11

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 09:25

lechiffre55. I would say I am a centrist (uk politics - which is pretty left wing for USA). But I also think change is vital. I think it is unhealthy for any party to be in power too long - locally or nationally. In most parties in Westminster being too long in power tends to be offset by the rise of rebels - effectively leading to a minority government (which subsequently falls). The list system prevents this and the SNP rules reinforces their compliance.

I have a lot of doubts about this kind of set up in any government, and also unicameral set-ups. There was a time when I was quite keen on various types of proportional representation, but watching those kinds of systems in action has tended to make me think they aren't better and may in fact be worse.

I think both will tend to lead to a very heavily party dominated system with really significant centralized authority, which IMO makes for a shitty democracy.

I can easily see why someone might feel it makes Scotland, or any other place, a bad candidate for independence if their systems look like they aren't up to doing the job long term. In fact I'd say if that looks to be a problem it would be better for people to start thinking about it before relying on those systems alone.

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 11:52

I'm not in favour of independence but I have a real issue with this statement:
starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country.
This attitude has brrn used for hundreds of years to oppress others.

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 11:47

Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality.

It's what can happen when hotheads try to concoct a new teeny weeny country.

Malefactors see their chance.

randomsabreuse · 03/03/2023 11:13

What Scotland needs is a viable opposition, if the SNP is so bad why hasn't one turned up from somewhere, whether it be from one of the UK wide parties or a new party (formed by expelled rebels from the SNP for example).

How about a positive alternative with reasonable policies rather than "they're bad vote for us because we're not quite as bad".

The PR should make it easier for new parties to get a foot hold (with the risk of tail wagging the dog in coalitions). With FPTP the SNP wouldn't have needed the Green coalition given what Westminster representation looks like...

Original poster

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 10:42

I meant no offense. In years past I would have apologised for causing offense, but these days with the way everything is going, I don't know that I want to automatically apologise for any offense taken.

I was trying to convey that actions to date by the SNP were making my views on the matter move in a direction contrary to the direction that they had previously been moving steadily for a long while. A right to self determination.

I feel that there is some small merit to my comment in that a nation who wants to self determine has spectaurlarly failed in it's attemps to do so. The only thing that saved Scotland was Westminster and section 35. Sturgeon's ultimate aim has to be free of that oversight. I heartily agree with everyone who posted that Scotland is NOT the SNP. But let's not forget who put the SNP in charge of Scotland, the people of Scotland. If Scotland had voted for independence last time there would have been no section 35 to save Scotland from the SNP.
I guess the right to self determination also includes the right to fuck things right up too.

OP posts:

IkBenDeMol · 03/03/2023 10:33

Quite. My kids were off school three days last week and three days next week in "targeted action" as we have the misfortune to live in the same constituency as some Green MSP who was elected on the regional list and who nobody actually voted for.

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 10:26

beguilingeyes · 03/03/2023 09:32

The Tories have given us four Prime Ministers in as many years. Two of whom we had no say in...and it's theScots who are crazy?!

Holyrood currently has Green Ministers dictating government policy who got around 1700 ( coming last out of 5 in the constituency vote) and 3200 votes (coming 4th out of 5)

I prefer Westminster actually getting rid of PMs who are a disaster (and fwiw I think Sunak is doing a good job) than the lunacy going on in Holyrood.

IkBenDeMol · 03/03/2023 10:04

Another Scot, living in Scotland and paying tax in Scotland.

The whole system is rubbish. No second chamber which means that the regime can pass whatever legislation they like, unchallenged. And cause a huge fuss when "Westmonster" steps in and stops the crazy stuff like the gender reform act. Greens are even nuttier and have far, far too much power. SNP is a closed shop, MSPs are not allowed to dissent or stray from the party line and if they do (like Joanna Cherry and Ash Regan), they're chucked out.

There is a HUGE lack of talent int Scottish politics. Ruth Davidson was very good at challenging the Scot Gov but she's now off to the House of Lords. Johann Lamont brought her former teacher demeanour to parliament but she's left too. Had high hopes for Anas Sarwar in Labour but so far, so meh.

The SNP pulling themselves apart and internally combusting is fantastic for those of us on the unionist side. My only concern is that it will leave a power vacuum for Alec Salmond to make a reappearance.

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 09:59

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2023 09:55

OP, this:

Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality.

Was an offensive thing to say. Which will explain some responses to your post/thread.

I agree that is offensive. More correct would be to say that the Scottish Parliamentary system is unfit for purpose.

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2023 09:57

Has Scotland ever not been under the thumb of the SNP?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Scotland

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 09:57

randomsabreuse · 03/03/2023 09:36

I live in Scotland but am not Scottish. The SNP's success feels to me like a natural consequence of the UK wide Westminster parties (other than the Tories) basically having a lack of interest outside London and the suburban south east. Labour used to be popular in Scotland but while the northern English traditional labour voters went to the Tories, in Scotland they went SNP because it felt like less of a step.

Most elections are won when people vote for the least worst option, which in Scotland seems to be the SNP for a lot of people.

First past the post sucks generally. If Westminster went PR I think there might be more sense that the regions are relevant again.

How much of that ‘lack of interest’ arises from the fact that the things that are of most interest to people (health, education, transport, etc) are devolved?

You think it would be better if Westminster MPs no longer represented constituents but were chosen by the party and represent the party? I used to think PR sounded good but the Scottish list system changed that. The list system gave us Patrick Harvey and Lorna Slater, neither of whom could attract personal votes but got in regardless and then made government ministers.

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2023 09:55

OP, this:

Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality.

Was an offensive thing to say. Which will explain some responses to your post/thread.

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 09:49

beguilingeyes · 03/03/2023 09:32

The Tories have given us four Prime Ministers in as many years. Two of whom we had no say in...and it's theScots who are crazy?!

But that is my point - in Westminster (which includes Scotland as part of it), when a party has been in power too long rebels rise and exert their power leading to a more unstable government. That is good as it is democracy, it prevents PMs becoming too authoritarian, and reduces extremism. This fact the SNP have NOT had change and Sturgeon was not challenged is a BAD thing.

randomsabreuse · 03/03/2023 09:48

Being in the EU gives freedom of movement within it - so you can go to different countries and broaden your experience or settle somewhere else.

If we aren't in the EU we still have to obey their laws to trade with them, so they still affect us. Or we can follow the laws of the USA but the cost of export is higher.

I always considered the EU to be a bit like Hobbes' Leviathan, not great, unwieldy but a load better than going it alone in a world of Leviathans. To mix my philosophers, EU is not an Utopia, just the least bad choice for now (Russia, USA, China being the other major choices).

Original poster

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 09:36

One thing that really confuses me about ( some in ) Scotland is the desire to be free of the shackles of the UK, and at same time the desire to rush headlong into the shackles of the EU. If you feel like a slave, wouldn't you want to be free instead of just swapping one slave owner for another.

There used to be this academic lady I would bump into every so often. She was from a small Balkan state that joined the EU. She was always complaining that the EU promised them equality in stature if they joined the EU, but when they joined the EU they got treated like a small Balkan state. They weren't treated like Germany or France, and felt like they weren't being taken seriously. I was too polite to ever express my "well what the fuck did you expect?" to her. I'm sure in Sturgeon's head she was another Merkel waiting just offstage for her cue, but I'm guessing she would have been very surprised when she found herself sat among the Balkans at the kiddies table.

OP posts:

randomsabreuse · 03/03/2023 09:36

I live in Scotland but am not Scottish. The SNP's success feels to me like a natural consequence of the UK wide Westminster parties (other than the Tories) basically having a lack of interest outside London and the suburban south east. Labour used to be popular in Scotland but while the northern English traditional labour voters went to the Tories, in Scotland they went SNP because it felt like less of a step.

Most elections are won when people vote for the least worst option, which in Scotland seems to be the SNP for a lot of people.

First past the post sucks generally. If Westminster went PR I think there might be more sense that the regions are relevant again.

beguilingeyes · 03/03/2023 09:32

The Tories have given us four Prime Ministers in as many years. Two of whom we had no say in...and it's theScots who are crazy?!

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 09:25

lechiffre55. I would say I am a centrist (uk politics - which is pretty left wing for USA). But I also think change is vital. I think it is unhealthy for any party to be in power too long - locally or nationally. In most parties in Westminster being too long in power tends to be offset by the rise of rebels - effectively leading to a minority government (which subsequently falls). The list system prevents this and the SNP rules reinforces their compliance.

Original poster

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 09:12

@SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey
Really good info on the new FM needing to pass a vote at Holyrood. I didn't know that, and clearly that makes a huge difference in the process when compared to Westminster. Thank you.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX
You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet. Maybe in your generic discussions about politics outside of this thread you butt your head into people who "'separatist' is somehow a derogatory term" and "Yet more of the utterly risible - your nationalism and separatism = bad, our nationalism and separatism = good." but I'm not seeing it in this thread. It may be something you bump into a lot, but it seems to have really entrenched itself into you.
Where in this thread I've stated that the fate of Scotland should be decided by the people of Scotland, even if that means them leaving the UK. Part of that sentiment literally comes from the political sabotage after the result of the Brexit referendum. I believe that politicians should enact the will of the people with good grace, even if they disagree with the will of the people.
In Scotland you voted to stay in the UK once. I think there going to be at least one more vote on the matter. But at some point it needs to be a settled matter either way, and whatever the poticians think, it should be the people of Scotland as a whole who decide. If you guys vote to leave in the future I will respect that. I hope you vote to stay. These votes on Scotland and Brexit are VERY divisive and it seems to really hurt the social fabric of the country quite a lot.
I think you need to chill out just a fraction.

@Shelefttheweb
The title of my original post, and the contents were a bit tongue in cheek. I was feeling an emotional reaction to the concept of holding political campaigning behind closed doors, and compared it to other countries where every aspect of political control over citizen's life is decided behind closed doors. I was hyperbolic. But you very clearly listed a load of different factors giving examples, thank you. Politics is always a dirty game, and it's the sunshine of the public's attention that seems to keep it clean. e.g. Boris getting the boot. All the news coming out of Scotland the SNP seems to point to a form of government where it's all decided in advance behind closed doors and then they go through the motions of pretending it's democratic. It feels to an outside observer far away, that once they get elected that's it, they just issue edicts, fuck what the people think. I know in the UK the Tories do long spells in charge but Blair and Brown also had a nice long spell at the helm. It does flip back and forth, even if it takes some time to flip. Has Scotland ever not been under the thumb of the SNP?

OP posts:

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2023 09:05

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 08:19

name changed as embarrassed to now be associated with these GC threads

You always were.

It is not ‘Scottish culture’ that passed the GRR bill, it was the failure of a political system driven by ideologically captured MSPs and civil servants. Dictatorships don’t appear overnight, they start with not allowing dissent (SNP rules, hate crimes bill, potential conversion bill, removal of women wearing suffragette colours from Parliament, calling political discussion ‘hate’), creation of preferred citizens/sacred caste (transgender) and differentially policing them (ignoring threats by them and signs calling death of those who disagree with them whilst arresting GC women at their behest), by the destruction of democratic systems (sham consultations, lobbyists for transgender writing bills/being given the position to examine them and inviting their lobby group members as witnesses/whipping MSPs to vote for the resulting bill), by hiding appointment of leaders behind closed doors and changing rules to fit preferred candidates (SNP hustings and leadership election), by allowing organisations representing their preferred ideology to train in distortions of the law and do nothing to correct it (Stonewall), by funding civic organisations and requiring them to agree with you as a condition of this....

Yeah, it's not great seeing it all written out in one big list.

I think the really damaging things to democracy are when we have two apparently irreconcilable positions. Left/Right, Yes/No, Brexit/Remain. Setting up a very swift 'us or them' situation and pushing people further into extremes. Plus we end up with deadlock.

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2023 09:01

SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey · 03/03/2023 01:59

I know that this thread is dead as a dodo, but in the interest of accuracy I just have to post.

But fork me the political situation with the SNP seems to be a real shitshow in reality. At least in the rest of the UK any party that makes a mess of things can get voted out. The Tories arses are dangling way out over the cliff edge from my point of view. I'm worried about Starmer the fence sitter not knowing what an adult human female is when he gets in. My point is in the rest of the UK the party in charge can be changed through a general election.

In general, a "snap" general election is easier/more likely for Scotland (Holyrood) than for the whole UK (Westminster).

When a UK PM resigns, the new party leader automatically becomes PM (subject to royal assent). But at Holyrood, the FM must be elected by a majority of MSPs. Because no one has a majority at Holyrood, the SNP will need at least one other party's MSPs to support their candidate. (Which is why there's so much speculation that the Greens might nix this or that SNP leadership candidate - but the SNP can get their person through with the help of any other party or a random assortment of rebel MSPs).

If no candidate wins a majority, or if the winner isn't considered capable of maintaining the confidence of the Parliament, there's no FM. If there's no FM 28 days after the current FM resigns, there's an election.

Also, the Scottish Parliament can still trigger an election by a 2/3 majority of MSPs. The UK Conservatives used their majority from 2019 - on the strength of which they have had 3 PMs, the last elected by nobody - to change the rules in the UK so that only the PM can call an election. When Truss and then Sunak opted not to call one, that was that.

Neither the UK nor Scotland is a "one party state", but I'd say the UK is functionally closer at the moment. Of course, the UK also has the check and balance of a second chamber in the HoL, which Scotland does not.

Thanks, that's really helpful information.