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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scotland turning into a banana republic without the bananas as they "elect" the next El Presidente

91 replies

lechiffre55 · 01/03/2023 14:37

Just read this and my mind is blown. It's like reading about a South American dictatorship running "elections" to re-elect El Presidente beloved of the people!
wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-days-of-saigon/
The first link in that article "last night’s article on Craig Murray’s site" makes my heart sink to read. Over the years I have really softened to the idea of Scottish Independance. If the Scots think they are better of going it alone, then who are we to interfere? But the blatant corruption and utter lack of democracy in Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality. It's an utter travesty what's happening, and a complete betrayal of the Scottish people.
Can whisky even be made from bananas?

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Grammarnut · 04/03/2023 08:40

lechiffre55 · 01/03/2023 15:16

@2bazookas
Who will Scottish voters vote for to deliver a reckoning?
I don't see them voting Tory, Labour. Who is there to vote for to deliver a reckoning?
The mainland isn't much better. Tories have trashed everything. Labour aren't sure wheat a woman is even though they want their votes. Lib Dems are also woman guessers but more of a joke than Labour. Greens etc... may as well vote for Lord Bucket Head - probably get better leadership out of him too.

Lord Bucket Head for PM. Excellent idea. (We haven't already had him/her have we? Just wondering.)

Grammarnut · 04/03/2023 08:33

I don't think whisky can be made from bananas, but a good wine can.

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 23:17

Please don't call me love.

OP posts:
ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 22:52

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 15:16

Maybe if you don't want people to pick up on something, don't post it.

Missing the point again there, love.
Never mind, hey?

justasking111 · 03/03/2023 22:22

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 20:45

You omitted to mention that the Greens, for whom almost no one voted for, hold the balance of power and keep the SNP in government.

As do plaid in Wales

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 20:45

2bazookas · 03/03/2023 18:32

@lechiffre55

At least in the rest of the UK any party that makes a mess of things can get voted out. <...> My point is in the rest of the UK the party in charge can be changed through a general election.

Whatever makes you think voters in Scotland can't do the same in the Scottish Parliament?

*As an outsider looking at Scotland it does not look to me that the SNP faces the same electoral comeuppance mechanics as the rest of the UK because Scotland seems to be a one party state.

You're misinformed . The Scottish Parliament has 129 MSPs, of whom 64 represent the SNP. 65 MSPs represent other parties, NOT the SNP.

You omitted to mention that the Greens, for whom almost no one voted for, hold the balance of power and keep the SNP in government.

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 20:43

You won't find many voters in Scotland, who regret our own Parliament or would willingly hand back Scotland's devolved powers to Westminster.

I voted No in all 3 referenda. If there a fourth for getting rid of Holyrood, I'd vote yes to that. I come across plenty of people who feel the same.

2bazookas · 03/03/2023 19:38

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 17:49

"that’s just lazy"
No, not when what is shown to us by the media is a very narrow one sided view. I am saying the information we see comes with a bias that we don't realise. It might be the media being lazy or disinterested, but I think it would be unfair to accuse the general populance of laziness without looking at where their information is coming from.

Irony meter explodes.

2bazookas · 03/03/2023 19:36

@lechiffre 55

I feel that there is some small merit to my comment in that a nation who wants to self determine has spectaurlarly failed in it's attemps to do so.

You very clearly have virtually no grasp of Scottish politics, history, devolution, or the role and history of the SNP.

Its not 50 years since Tory PM Margaret Thatcher ripped the heart out of Scotland's traditional industries and economy, and triggered the demand for Devolution.

You won't find many voters in Scotland, who regret our own Parliament or would willingly hand back Scotland's devolved powers to Westminster.

The devolved Scottish Parliament dates from 1999. Until 2007, the devolved executive was led by a coalition of the Scottish Labour Party and Scottish Liberal Democrats. The SNP didn't rise to dominance until 2007.

23 years is a short time in politics; it encompassed the Iraq war, the global economic crash of 2008, Blair's failed Labour govt, Salmonds failed Scottish Independence referendum; the Tory party returning to power in Westminster, the EU referendum, Covid, and a string of spectacularly failed Tory Prime Ministers in Westminster.

2bazookas · 03/03/2023 18:32

@lechiffre55

At least in the rest of the UK any party that makes a mess of things can get voted out. <...> My point is in the rest of the UK the party in charge can be changed through a general election.

Whatever makes you think voters in Scotland can't do the same in the Scottish Parliament?

*As an outsider looking at Scotland it does not look to me that the SNP faces the same electoral comeuppance mechanics as the rest of the UK because Scotland seems to be a one party state.

You're misinformed . The Scottish Parliament has 129 MSPs, of whom 64 represent the SNP. 65 MSPs represent other parties, NOT the SNP.

Mojoj · 03/03/2023 17:56

Let's just see who Scotland votes for next, shall we? After all, it's the people who live in Scotland who will decide if it's worth continuing their unparalleled support for the SNP. Despite what England, Wales and NI might think.

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 17:49

"that’s just lazy"
No, not when what is shown to us by the media is a very narrow one sided view. I am saying the information we see comes with a bias that we don't realise. It might be the media being lazy or disinterested, but I think it would be unfair to accuse the general populance of laziness without looking at where their information is coming from.

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museumum · 03/03/2023 17:41

As an outsider looking at Scotland it does not look to me that the SNP faces the same electoral comeuppance mechanics as the rest of the UK because Scotland seems to be a one party state. It's the SNP no matter how they perform.

you certainly can’t blame snp or the Scottish govt for this. Labour absolutely fucked up in Scotland. Since Kezia Dugdale left they’ve been an utter shambles. Unelectable for years. Maybe, just maybe, they’re not quite as awful now. Lib Dem’s also imploded.

We in the UK get our perceptions of what Scotland thinks from the SNP.
that’s just lazy, like us up here assuming you guys are all completely behind anything and everything that Boris, Liz, Rishi did and do. Clearly there’s opposition, and it’s pretty steady close to 50/50 for and against independence.

DemiColon · 03/03/2023 17:28

I think that wherever there are independence or separatist movements, you see the party which wants that representing themselves as the authentic voice of the people, whether or not it's really true. And I suspect that usually they believe it.

To anyone outside if often seems like it must be accurate.

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 16:46

@SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey
I really appreciate the effort you put into that post thank you. As somone quite far from Scotland it's so interesting to hear what's going on from someone on the ground.
I missed ArabellaScott's link so I'm going to go find that and read that too.

In the UK we've had long spells of government - Thatcher into John Major, Blair and Brown, the return of a much more fragmented Tory period covering Brexit. Reading what you wrote and comparing the length of SNP rule in Scotland to the three long dynasties I just wrote makes me realise that the UK doesn't quite flip back and forth as often as my brain thinks it does, and by comparison the SNP reign is sort of on a par with the UK.

There's a perception that I have as a resident of the UK and I suspect that might apply across the rest of the UK, that the people of Scotland want to leave the UK. What I mean by that is in the rest of the UK, Scotland is represented by the SNP. We in the UK get our perceptions of what Scotland thinks from the SNP. Some of the posts in this thread have really helped me to understand just how wrong that perception might be. I have this mental image of Scottish devolutionists being very active and doing a lot, and Scottish unionists being a quiet bunch just going about their lives. Having heard from a variety of voices in this thread, I now think this this mental image is probably wrong.
I can see how myself and others in the UK would get this impression. Whenever we see something about Scotland in the media its from the SNP point of view. In Westminster we only ever see the SNP waffling. We never see one without the other. What I'm saying is that the protrayal of Scotland in the UK might not reflect the wide range of views and people of Scotland. I think we are presented a much more narrow field of view of who the Scottish people are and what they want.
I really appreciate everyone from Scotland who has commented and helped me get a much more balanced view of how the different people of Scotland feel.

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LexMitior · 03/03/2023 16:36

The fact that there is such focus on the SNP leadership tells you how shrivelled devolved politics has become. In a more balanced country there would be greater focus on the problems and solutions for Scotland, but it's quickly reverted to a personality for independence. That tells you everything- the SNP won't suddenly become effective government but they are looking for the best grievance candidate aka someone who will protect Nicola Sturgeon from the consequences of her mess.

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 16:13

I said I objected to the sentiment that any country should be discouraged or prevented from self governance because of an external perception that they're not up to it.

I don't know who posted this, but it's such a straw man. The separatists twist any objections to separatism to either "you're anti- Scotland" and /or "are you saying we're not up to it". (Although the current SNP administration has made a good fist of showing they're not up to it)

I honestly don't understand why anyone supports separatism or the SNP. What is the point beyond grudge holding of chips on your shoulder and sentimentality.

SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey · 03/03/2023 15:55

@Lechiffre55: I know in the UK the Tories do long spells in charge but Blair and Brown also had a nice long spell at the helm. It does flip back and forth, even if it takes some time to flip. Has Scotland ever not been under the thumb of the SNP?

Yes, absolutely! I'm not having a go, as I know you said you don't know Scottish politics well, but it's a funny question from a Scottish perspective because until sometime in the 2000s - 2010s, Scotland was Labour-dominated for about a century. And before that it was dominated by other socialist/workers' parties, some of whom were pro independence. The SNP have been around for ages - won their first seat at Westminster in 1967 and kept up a small presence, but their status as the third largest party (overtaking the Lib Dems) didn't happen until 2015.

I was living abroad in 2010, when the UK election was held which kicked out Gordon Brown and consigned the whole UK to fifteen years of Conservative rule. I remember being surprised that in terms of MPs elected, Scotland broke into (roughly) thirds: Labour, Lib Dem, SNP. I was surprised to see the SNP figuring significantly outside of the Highlands and Islands. I think that's where the Scotland-wide balance started to shift - with the Holyrood election of 2007 and the UK election of 2010. But there was an even bigger shift after the 2014 Scottish Independence Referendum, which in my view was wildly botched by both Labour and the Conservatives who, rather than taking the referendum mandate and the 45% "Yes" result as a warning shot took it as an admission of defeat from Scottish separatists (and, to some extent, Scottish devolutionists). It wasn't, and the triumphalism that followed - EVEL and so on - galvanised support for the SNP.

I'm in a Glasgow (city) constituency where Labour was long dominant, and I grew up in the constituency next door, where my family still live. In both of these, the balance tipped in the 2015 UK election - AFTER the referendum. Both constituencies had been Labour safe seats for a century, and both flipped SNP in 2015 and have stayed SNP. In both of these constituencies, which should be target "swing seats", Labour has not run a competent candidate since the 2015 flip - why on earth not?

RE 21st century Scottish politics, ArabellaScott posted a great link upthread, but for an even quicker "potted history": the Scottish Parliament has existed since 1999, following two referndums where the majority approved a devolved Scottish Assembly and Executive - now a Parliament and a Government. Independence supporters (including but not limited to the SNP) wanted and fought for it, but its main and decisive advocate was Labour - who didn't want an independent Scotland, but wanted devolution.

From 1999 to 2007, Scotland had Labour-led coalition governments with the Lib Dems as junior partner. In 2007, the balance flipped and the SNP won the largest number of seats; they opted for a minority government. In 2011, the SNP won an outright majority. When Alex Salmond (boo! hiss!) resigned after the no vote in the 2014 independence referendum, Nicola Sturgeon became FM. In 2016, the SNP lost their majority but still got the highest number of seats, so formed another minority government. In 2021, the SNP gained a few seats but still not a majority and formed a coalition government with the Greens.

So SNP dominates for now - and the focus is on who they will elect as Leader, and if that person becomes FM. It's interesting to look at the composition of Holyrood today (there are 129 seats): SNP 64, Con 31, Lab 22, Greens 7, Lib Dems 4 + Presiding Officer 1 who only votes to break a tie. Interesting times!

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 15:16

Maybe if you don't want people to pick up on something, don't post it.

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ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 15:06

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 14:57

It sort of is implying it is given the context of your entire post.
That what other readers of your post took from your post anyway.

I can see what others took from my post.

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 14:57

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 14:54

Yes, it has.
That is not the same as saying its being used to oppress the Scottish.
🙄

It sort of is implying it is given the context of your entire post.
That what other readers of your post took from your post anyway.

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ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 14:54

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 14:50

This attitude has brrn used for hundreds of years to oppress others.

Yes, it has.
That is not the same as saying its being used to oppress the Scottish.
🙄

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 14:50

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 14:25

That isn't actually what I said.

I said I objected to the sentiment that any country should be discouraged or prevented from self governance because of an external perception that they're not up to it.

This attitude has brrn used for hundreds of years to oppress others.

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ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 14:25

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 12:15

Tell us how Scotland is being oppressed.

That isn't actually what I said.

I said I objected to the sentiment that any country should be discouraged or prevented from self governance because of an external perception that they're not up to it.

LexMitior · 03/03/2023 13:46

Isn't it fair to say, even with Holyrood, that Scottish political talent migrates south to Westminster? You can see plenty of that over the decades. This leaves a low level of ability for the devolved government and so Scotland, even if it votes SNP, is trapped by the fact that their best people are basically not working in the devolved parliament.

Scotland has lots of talent. It is just not engaging with devolution. So you get really third rate people making laws. Nicola Sturgeon inlcluded - given a fantastic situation by Alex Salmond, a Westminster operator who got and nearly won a referendum, and she ruined it.