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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Children protesting about unisex toilets

82 replies

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 11:07

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11802555/TikTok-protests-rock-Britains-schools-Pupils-scale-gates-trash-classrooms-rules.html

It's not just about unisex toilets, it's also not being able to go to the loo during lessons (also a bigger issue for girls) and uniform.

The thing that is shocking is quotes such as boys putting phones under the toilet doors and girls not going to the loo all day. We know this happens in mixed sex spaces, it's not rocket science, why on earth weren't proper risk assessments done? It has to be illegal and sex discrimination not to prevent known risks from unisex toilets?

It's shameful that CHILDREN are having to do this themselves. Where are the adults? Where is safeguarding?

Why are the facts known to development charities for years that you need single sex toilets for girls to be able access their human right to education ignored just because it's the UK?

There are a few women like Miriam Cates and KJK who can hold their heads up high about this but not many adults are protecting children (and I include myself in this - I felt shame reading this). It's so shocking.

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birchtreeglow · 01/03/2023 14:08

Here is the DfE's non-statutory advice 'Standards for School Premises'.

Government documents (advice, guidance and even secondary legislation) have not always represented the primary legislaion correctly, so may be worth checking out the regulations within the advice document.

www.gov.uk/guidance/standards-for-school-premises

"The Standards
Toilet and washing facilities

ISS Regulation 23A — (1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), the standard in this paragraph is met if the proprietor ensures that—

a) suitable toilet and washing facilities are provided for the sole use of pupils;

b) separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over are provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time; and

c) suitablechangingaccommodationandshowersareprovidedforpupilsaged11 years or over at the start of the school year who receive physical education.

(2) Where separate facilities are provided under sub-paragraph (1) (a) for pupils who are disabled, they may also be used by other pupils, staff, supply staff, volunteers and visitors, whether or not they are disabled.

SPRs Regulation 4 — (1) Subject to paragraph (3), suitable toilet and washing facilities must be provided for the sole use of pupils.

(2) Separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over must be provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time.

(3) Where separate facilities are provided under paragraph (1) for pupils who are disabled, they may also be used by other pupils, teachers and others employed at the school, and visitors, whether or not they are disabled.

(4) Suitable changing accommodation and showers must be provided for pupils aged 11 years or over at the start of the school year who receive physical education.

Numbers of fittings
The regulations do not set the minimum number of fittings to be provided in relation to the ages and numbers of pupils. Generally the needs of younger pupils are likely to be greater than those for older ones. So, for example, a provision of one toilet and washbasin for every ten pupils under 5 years old would be adequate, while that ratio could be doubled for pupils aged 5-11 to one toilet and washbasin for every 20 pupils. For pupils over 11 one toilet per 20 pupils would be sufficient, but there is scope to reduce the number of washbasins where the washing facilities are shared. 5

General planning
Toilet facilities need to be planned and designed so that:

a) hand washing facilities are provided within or in the immediate vicinity of every toilet;

b) the rooms containing them are adequately ventilated and lit;

c) they are located in areas around the school that provide easy access for pupils and allow for informal supervision by staff, without compromising pupils’ privacy.

Where there is unisex provision (under ISS 23A (1) (b) or SPR 4 (2)), the privacy of the occupant needs to be ensured and this will be achieved by, for example, having adequate enclosure and a full height door.

Facilities for disabled pupils
Each toilet for disabled pupils needs to contain one toilet and one washbasin (and possibly a shower or other wash down fitting) and have a door opening directly onto a circulation space that is not a staircase and which can be secured from the inside. Where possible, the number and location of accessible toilets will be sufficient to ensure a reasonable travel distance for users that does not involve changing floor levels 5.

Changing accommodation and showers for pupils
It is preferable for showers to be in areas separated from toilets and they need to provide adequate privacy. Consideration may also be given to providing changing rooms, with or without showers, at primary schools for pupils who need to wear sports kit for physical education, but this is not required under the regulations.

Toilets and washing facilities or staff
Toilets and washing facilities for staff6 may be also be used by visitors. They should be separate from those provided for pupils, except where they are designed for use by those who are disabled.

5 The requirements of Part M of the Building Regulations will be satisfied if any wheelchair user does not have to travel more than 40m horizontally to reach an accessible toilet. With young pupils the travel distance may need to be less.

6 Regulations 20 and 21 of the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 set out the standards for staff toilets and washing facilities."

Dwrcegin · 01/03/2023 14:07

One assumes that these 'fully enclosed cubicles' also contain washbasins, but apparently this is a slightly grey area.

I am deeply opposed to unisex toilets in school, it really winds me up. There aren't sinks in the cubicle in our local school.

The locks on those types of cubicle doors are easily broken off (they can be kicked open and most alarmingly, opened from the outside of the door).

Boys urinate over everything - and I do mean everything - in the cubicle so they can't be used by girls or anyone really. I am not surprised children are protesting.

Funny thing is the staff toilets have remained single sexed use. Shall we take a guess at why?

oldwomanwhoruns · 01/03/2023 14:05

I think that Safe Schools Alliance have some good standard letters?

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 14:02

oldwomanwhoruns · 01/03/2023 12:55

We are advised that parents need to complain, in writing. Not just the school, but to Ofstead, DofE, your MP, and the Education minister. Also to the school governors (of course)

Right now they are saying 'oh but we don't get many complaints'.

So complain to ALL these people and bodies.

Are there any standard letters? If there was something short and concise stating the law, I am sure many parents would send.

It doesn't even need to necessarily be specific it could just be an:

I just want to confirm that X school is complying with Y law and that there are adequate numbers of single sex toilets for all children.

Schools collect data on attendance and I'd love to see the breakdown by sex in single and mixed sex schools and between schools with single sex toilets (adequate numbers not 1) and mixed sex. I'm 100% certain it would show what is basic common sense. Of course I expect no one's looking at this (despite attendance being the MOST important thing otherwise)

How any teacher can live with themselves if they're in a school with one single sex toilet and a massive queue of girls waiting every break and lunch I don't know. It's a visual message that girls don't matter and they are second class humans.

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IWilloBeACervix · 01/03/2023 13:53

My daughter’s school are soon to be making some ‘improvements’ to the toilets. I’ve been emailing them about it and haven’t managed to get very far with them.

They aren’t thinking about the children. They’re only focus is on trying to stop misbehaviour in the toilets. The proper solution, as mentioned upthread, is more staff.

They are having boys cubicles on one side to the wash area and girls on the other, so it’s a mashup of single-sex cubicles in a mixed sex facility. I don’t think that’s how the guidance is meant to be interpreted. The mixed-sex option is for either separate disabled facilities or where they only have space for one toilet, not the main toilets!

I think I might have to try and get some other parents involved, but I don’t know how.

It’ll cost a fortune to rectify. I’m trying to save them money in the long run.

bellswithwhistles · 01/03/2023 13:02

You're in danger of being accused of being prejudiced against trans if you kick up about it.

3 trans kids in DD's school - hence why they changed the toilets to mixed. 2400 other kids don't count apparently.

Surely you just install a porta loo cabin for those 3 trans kids?! They've already 'come out' so having to use their own toilet surely is no major issue?

JemimaTiggywinkles · 01/03/2023 12:58

According to a meeting I attended recently, Ofsted will only get involved if at least 10% of parents complain. That is incredibly difficult, as each set of parents has to go through the school's complaints procedure first.

oldwomanwhoruns · 01/03/2023 12:55

We are advised that parents need to complain, in writing. Not just the school, but to Ofstead, DofE, your MP, and the Education minister. Also to the school governors (of course)

Right now they are saying 'oh but we don't get many complaints'.

So complain to ALL these people and bodies.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 01/03/2023 12:54

Why aren't the DfE standing up for children's rights to have single-sex toilets?

Firstly, DfE are pretty captured. I've been waiting for a definition of "gender identity" for months, despite my MP asking for one and me pointing out that we are required to teach it!

Secondly, lots of the disruption is about children who want to be allowed to go to the toilet in lessons. This creates a massive problem for schools because a significant minority of pupils will go to the toilet just to avoid doing work, or to mess around unsupervised. Of course, the solution is obvious (sufficient staffing, CCTV in corridors outside the toilets) but the DfE don't want to pay for it.

oldwomanwhoruns · 01/03/2023 12:50

I'm told that if schools have 'fully enclosed , unisex cubicles' they are within the law.
One assumes that these 'fully enclosed cubicles' also contain washbasins, but apparently this is a slightly grey area.

And if there is a huge vent in the door, is it still ' fully enclosed'??

It's a war on women and girls. We need a change in the law.

midgemadgemodge · 01/03/2023 12:49

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 12:31

I wish more state schools were single sex. You'd remove almost all the sexual harassment in one go, girls would go to the loo not try and hold it all day. There would be fewer UTIs and they could focus on learning. I bet there's better attendance in single sex schools for girls as girls can go to school during their periods.

Yes but boys do better in mixed schools - think of the boys please, they are so much more important to our future than girls

( there may be an element of sarcasm there )

ReedRite · 01/03/2023 12:40

RoyalCorgi · 01/03/2023 12:07

Did anyone see the response from the DfE?

'We are concerned at the reports of disruption and will be in touch with all schools and local authorities to ensure they are supported at this time.

'We will always back headteachers to take the action required to maintain calm and supportive classroom environments as they are best placed to work with their teachers, parents, pupils and local communities when developing and implementing policies.'

Why aren't the DfE standing up for children's rights to have single-sex toilets?

Because the civil service has been captured by Stonewall and hasn’t yet had the nous or nuts to move on from that?

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 12:31

I wish more state schools were single sex. You'd remove almost all the sexual harassment in one go, girls would go to the loo not try and hold it all day. There would be fewer UTIs and they could focus on learning. I bet there's better attendance in single sex schools for girls as girls can go to school during their periods.

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N4ish · 01/03/2023 12:11

This is one of the reasons why my daughter is attending a single sex school.

Having unisex toilets just means girls will refuse to go to school during their periods for fear of being harrassed in the bathrooms, it's really shocking. As a PP said it makes a mockery of the huge focus on encouraging full school attendance.

RoyalCorgi · 01/03/2023 12:07

Did anyone see the response from the DfE?

'We are concerned at the reports of disruption and will be in touch with all schools and local authorities to ensure they are supported at this time.

'We will always back headteachers to take the action required to maintain calm and supportive classroom environments as they are best placed to work with their teachers, parents, pupils and local communities when developing and implementing policies.'

Why aren't the DfE standing up for children's rights to have single-sex toilets?

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 12:01

Rememberal · 01/03/2023 11:57

In my DDs school they get around this by providing ONE single sex toilet however it's on the other side of the building and is locked during lessons. The girls queue around the corner at breaks and lunch for it...

This I think would still be considered illegal if challenged in a court of law. If it's inaccessible it's not really an option.

Also aren't there laws / guidance around number of toilets per number of students?

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Rememberal · 01/03/2023 11:57

SiobhanSharpe · 01/03/2023 11:09

I thought it was indeed illegal, schools are obliged to provide separate sex toilets for children over the age of eight, aren't they?

In my DDs school they get around this by providing ONE single sex toilet however it's on the other side of the building and is locked during lessons. The girls queue around the corner at breaks and lunch for it...

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 11:39

Where are the governors in this also? They are legally responsible I believe for ensuring the school follows the law. (not the stonewall idea of what the law should be).

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dimorphism · 01/03/2023 11:35

Sorry posted too soon - it's absurd some schools are doing the right thing and complying with the law with single sex whilst others are not. How can it be ok for there to be so much variance?

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dimorphism · 01/03/2023 11:34

Could parents whose schools are breaking the law like this take the DfE to court if brushed off by LA / school / Ofsted? A class action?

I'm lucky in that my school has single sex toilets still but I would contribute to a general fund for this.

Mixed sex discriminates on the protected characteristic of sex (girls, menstruation, sexual abuse) but also religion (many faiths require single sex). It's also a failure to safeguard properly.

It's also absurd that many schools do still have single sex. My DDs primary had mixed sex to 8 and single sex thereafter so plenty of schools are getting it rights and complying with the law.

You have to wonder if schools are allowed to simply break the law on this without any consequence, what else they're breaking the law about.

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eatdrinkandbemerry · 01/03/2023 11:28

Good on the kids for standing up for their rights 👍🏻.
Schools are being run like prisons but even prisoners are allowed to use a toilet when they need to not by the hands on a clock!

RichardBarrister · 01/03/2023 11:24

Suzi888 · 01/03/2023 11:19

Bloody stupid idea.

Boys go in the male toilet, girls in the ladies.

The end.

Our school removed almost all of the single sex toilets and installed mixed sex cubicles.

I and many other parents challenged them and they have dug in their heels and insisted it is compliant with the law (obviously it isn’t).

We can’t find anyone who will make them change the toilets though - the council won’t get involved, Ofsted won’t get involved. Our MP is supportive and has tried to help but can’t do anything.

The girls just don’t use the loos and sometimes miss school during their periods because it is so grim trying to deal with a period with boys hooning around on the other side of a flimsy 10mm partition.

I don’t know how we can make them listen.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/03/2023 11:22

Good for the children. They are brave to do this.

I was speaking to my 16 year old about it, most young people are scared to tell the truth for being ostracised or even kicked out for having the wrong views.

It is ridiculous that girls are being put through any of this. Males should not be in girls toilets at schools and they should never be locked. I remember growing up I was worried to do a poo at school in case someone could hear, imagine if you are worried that a boy could secretly film you. This is a serious health concern, I can imagine many girls won't drink and will hold on to avoid having to go to the toilet at school.

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 11:21

Given all the ridiculous focus on over 97% attendance, you'd think a quick win to improve attendance would be single sex toilets so girls feel safe attending school during their periods.

Apparently the desires of a minority of boys to sexually assault and intimidate girls is more important.

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Suzi888 · 01/03/2023 11:19

Bloody stupid idea.

Boys go in the male toilet, girls in the ladies.

The end.

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