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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lost friends because I am not a believer

115 replies

WhatIsGenderQueerAnyway · 28/02/2023 22:30

Regular poster but NC.

Please tell me how refusing to go along with the delusion that a person can change sex and that everyone has a gender has affected your relationships and friendships.

It’s proving to be a bumpy road for me as I peaked several years ago and since then have lost a few friends. It’s been an eye opener actually.

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WhatIsGenderQueerAnyway · 02/03/2023 20:58

mach2 · 02/03/2023 12:59

Welcome. It's an idea that has slowly formed these last few years as I watch the antics.

I'm reminded of Mao's Red Guards, minus the massive physical brutality*. I'm convinced that it can't be reasoned with.

* The menace is there though, in the "Decapitate Terfs" and "Suck my girldick" signs.

Yes, I have seen photos of those signs on Twitter. They were very shocking.

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DuesToTheDirt · 02/03/2023 19:49

@Tabitha1960 what horrendous behaviour. It really shows how nasty some of the trans believers are - it's a real witch hunt. I think they like to cancel people primarily because they can't engage in debate with us, as they have no logical arguments to back them up.

SoonToBeQueenCamilla · 02/03/2023 19:47

Alltheprettyseahorses · 01/03/2023 09:51

You could look at it another way. Their adherence to wacky luxury beliefs have cost them friends.

This.

Groutyonehereagain · 02/03/2023 19:37

mach2 · 02/03/2023 12:33

Transgenderism, which I distinguish from dysphoria, is an ideological belief system. Its adherents appear to depend heavily on external opinion for validation. It is so fragile that one dissenting voice is "damaging" and "dangerous", and the dissenter must be closed down and made to repent.

Doubters must be forced to change their belief or made to be quiet through fear of the consequences. Which is why doubters must be hounded out of jobs, driven out of business, excluded from societies and stripped of friends.

Unfortunately, identity politics, of which transgenderism is a part, is deeply embedded in the public sector, NGOs and the corporate world. Going against all of this can be a very lonely business, especially when old friends and new turn in you.

I believe they refer to their condition as gender dysphoria, which then leads them on to be transgender. I completely agree that validation is very important to them and anyone who questions, is shut down. If the person questioning persists then they are ostracised, unless they repent. In the case of male to female trans, their behaviour is very much fuelled by their masculinity, which is pretty ironic considering. If you are female and question, then there appears to be a degree of misogyny in the script.

nepeta · 02/03/2023 16:40

I was thinking of this thread last night, because it links to something slightly different: not losing friends, but losing respect for various public persons, including some who say they are feminists, when they unthinkingly (?) appear to prioritise male interests/demands/needs over female ones.

I feel I can't trust them now, even on unrelated issues, because they are either not what they stated they were (say, feminists) or they are more stupid than I thought or lazier than I thought in not having done the hard thinking and research which is required.

This feeling must be thousand times stronger when it's friends who suddenly turn on someone.

mach2 · 02/03/2023 12:59

WhatIsGenderQueerAnyway · 02/03/2023 12:38

Thank you @mach2

You’ve summarised what I have started to think very well.

Welcome. It's an idea that has slowly formed these last few years as I watch the antics.

I'm reminded of Mao's Red Guards, minus the massive physical brutality*. I'm convinced that it can't be reasoned with.

* The menace is there though, in the "Decapitate Terfs" and "Suck my girldick" signs.

WhatIsGenderQueerAnyway · 02/03/2023 12:38

Thank you @mach2

You’ve summarised what I have started to think very well.

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mach2 · 02/03/2023 12:33

Transgenderism, which I distinguish from dysphoria, is an ideological belief system. Its adherents appear to depend heavily on external opinion for validation. It is so fragile that one dissenting voice is "damaging" and "dangerous", and the dissenter must be closed down and made to repent.

Doubters must be forced to change their belief or made to be quiet through fear of the consequences. Which is why doubters must be hounded out of jobs, driven out of business, excluded from societies and stripped of friends.

Unfortunately, identity politics, of which transgenderism is a part, is deeply embedded in the public sector, NGOs and the corporate world. Going against all of this can be a very lonely business, especially when old friends and new turn in you.

IcakethereforeIam · 02/03/2023 09:16

@Tabitha1960 FlowersI'm so sorry. Some of the 'be kind' crowd need to look up what bigotry actually is. I think the cognitive dissonance is so profound it's actually mentally painful. Which they deal with by attacking the perceived source of the pain.

TimeForThunder · 02/03/2023 09:09

That was in response to @Tabitha1960

TimeForThunder · 02/03/2023 09:07

I'm sorry to hear your experiences, that sounds very difficult. However, your story about the lodger has really tickled my enjoyment of the ridiculous. I hope with enough distance and time you find the funny side of that one.

Poor woman. It sounds like being a 'gold star' lesbian is so much a part of the narrative she's constructed about herself that she's desperate not to let it go. Which is understandable and deserving of compassion but the absurdity it has lead her to is a prime candidate for a skewering of human foibles!

DanseAvecLesLoup · 02/03/2023 09:05

MichelleScarn · 02/03/2023 08:49

Lady peen are sparkly and pretty and shoot out glittery stuff... male penises (peni ?) are just sexual organs that ejaculate semen I think?

Now there is an image burnt into my conscious

MichelleScarn · 02/03/2023 08:49

Lady peen are sparkly and pretty and shoot out glittery stuff... male penises (peni ?) are just sexual organs that ejaculate semen I think?

DanseAvecLesLoup · 02/03/2023 08:31

Tabitha1960 · 02/03/2023 05:04

I should add that, when I first got peaked about 4 yrs ago and started talking to those close to me, they all already held the GC position. However, I did lose a lodger because I came put as a "terf."

She was very young, just out of Uni and landed her first ever job. It was far from home so she came to lodge at my house. Whilst having a get-to-know each other chat I told her she was allowed to have a boyfriend to stay over occasionally, she told me she was a gold-star lesbian (one that has never been with a man). Fair enough.

However a couple of weeks later another lodger happened to mention something about trans people and he was a bit derogatory, mocking them, and the new lady got cross with him, saying she had been in a relationship with a pre op TW tutor for a year whilst at Uni living in halls.

Shortly afterwards we were having a cuppa and a friendly chat and I gently broached the subject: I asked her to explain to this old dinosaur (me) how you can have a sexual relationship with a biological male for a year but still call yourself a gold star lesbian. She instantly became shirty with me, mumbled something about a lady penis being completely different from the usual horrible male ones, then abandoned her coffee and went to her room, wrote a letter giving me 2 weeks notice.

What is the difference between a penis and a 'lady penis' to those beholden to the trans ideology?

WhatIsGenderQueerAnyway · 02/03/2023 08:31

@TimeForThunder I appreciate your post, thank you for taking the time. I agree with your phrase “authoritarian bullies”, it definitely applies to a couple of people who have blocked me and so on.

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RaininginDarling · 02/03/2023 08:20

TimeForThunder · 02/03/2023 05:41

I'm so sorry you've lost friends over this. My experiences have fallen into a few camps:

  1. Some of my oldest, dearest friends who I thought might be quite TWAW for various reasons (well-to-do, intellectual, artsy, in countries where its prevalent, nothing to personally gain from resisting) pleasantly surprised me by saying, "this is total bollocks, isn't it?" and feeling completely comfortable doing so on the basis they thought I would have seen through it too but also because even if I hadn't they know I genuinely believe in free speech and tolerance of divergence of opinion (even quite extreme and where I vehemently disagree). So that was nice.
  2. Secret fellow GCs I've ended up hearing about in the grapevine - sometime through other friends complaining about their views, not realising I agree with them (because the topic hasn't come up between us yet) and me making contact with them like we're in the French Resistance to say "me too! You're not alone!"
  3. Friends and family I've discussed it with who thought I was a bit nuts to care or to hold as strong a line as I do. I had one tipsy rant about the whole issue in detail and then left it, rarely mentioning anything to do with it again. Over the years that followed they've come to me repeatedly following each fresh outrage as they gradually peaked and as more of their friends whose opinions they respect also started openly saying, "this is bollocks". Again, they knew (from my rant and from knowing me generally) that I am 'safe' to share these opinions with.
  4. Friends who are apathetic. We discuss it superficially sometimes but otherwise just don't discuss it, which is fine.
  5. Friends who disagree with me. In some cases the difference of opinion becomes clear and we simply don't discuss it. With one or two I've had some robust debate and left it at agree to disagree. I hope some of what I've said sinks in over time similar to those at (3) but if it doesn't, it doesn't. I'm friends with them for different reasons that are unaffected by what I consider to be this blindspot. I note it with interest, and move on.
  6. Colleagues with pronouns in the signature block - I wouldn't discuss the issue at work anyway unless strictly relevant to the job or any training but I consider active pronouns fair warning to completely swerve!

I'm fortunate to have a lots of little pockets of friendships completely unrelated to each other so its easy for me to say that I wouldn't want to be friends with anyone who couldn't at the very least agree to disagree and not discuss a topic on which we strongly disagree. But honestly, if people are going to cut you off over a difference of political opinion they were only ever fair weather friends at best; authoritarian bullies at worst.

I think it's important to speak up unashamedly where you can (not least because it empowers others to do the same, and to know they can speak to you too) but of course there are limits and everyone had a different limit as to friendships, social support and if course employment that they can afford to lose. Don't feel guilty about keeping quiet where you reach your limit.

Sending you support.

Great post @TimeForThunder - nodding along as this is my experience also.

WhatIsGenderQueerAnyway · 02/03/2023 08:14

@Tabitha1960 I’m shocked at the way you have been treated particularly by the person who openly derided you using your photograph. As for your former lodger and the lady penis, what can one say?

Thanks to everyone who’s offered their own experiences here. I’m loving the pansexual = lover of saucepans with different handles!

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BellaAmorosa · 02/03/2023 07:38

@mach2
Yes, agreed about how some GI believers see sex, linked to the false notion that sex characteristics occur randomly. But some do also seem to think that taking cross-sex hormones physiologically changes you - esp men who claim to be women who say they have menstrual cycles, for example.

PauliString · 02/03/2023 07:28

she had been in a relationship with a pre op TW tutor for a year whilst at Uni living in halls.

How long ago was that? These days I’d be surprised if that wasn’t a sackable offence.

BellaAmorosa · 02/03/2023 07:24

Tabitha1960 · 02/03/2023 04:39

I've had to self-silence like a coward now, which is wrong because the more GC people keep quiet, the more it looks, overall, as though people agree with the ideology. But the thing is, on a personal level the price is not worth paying. I am already socially isolated by being an elderly, disabled female, I cannot afford to be shunned or ejected, hated and avoided by a whole bunch of local people who are potentially or currently well-disposed towards me.

What I have found is that when I have made even the mildest comment on local social media (think local FB groups, and other local online forums) I've been the victim of a pile-on and then called all those nasty names (you know them). I was in tears when I was roasted, vilified, name-called, ejected and banned for life from a local FB neighbouhood political discussion forum, for making ONE post. Yes, just one short post. Someone started a thread asking, "what issues are important to you in the upcoming local council elections?" My solitary reply was that I wanted them to pledge to retain single sex safe spaces. I then went offline for a few hours and when I returned I had been roasted alive. The first reply was "OMG we've got a terf in our midst" and it then went downhill from there. I was left crying and shaking and I was on edge for days worried that a brick might come through one of my windows.

As a result of that one sentence not only did I get permanently silenced in the group but four individual female acquaintances went from liking me to hating me. One of them is a well known local lesbian artist. Another was someone who had posted a fun photo of me on her FB page, a pic she snapped of me in the sunshine whilst I was out in my wheelchair wearing summery carnival outfit, with some nice, kind flattering words beneath. She edited her words to say "Beware of this TERF." I was horrified.

I also lost a business contact because of this. A Labour Party officer who I did some business with saw my FB wall taking the piss out of one of the more ludicrous things a cult member had said. She messaged to say she would have no more business dealings with me as I was an ignorant hateful bigot.

That's horrendous! What horrible, bullying behaviour.

BellaAmorosa · 02/03/2023 07:17

nepeta · 01/03/2023 17:23

It's a separate question what being attracted to genders rather than one or the other or both sexes might mean.

From one theory pansexual would be bisexual if we base sexual orientation on sex as it has been defined (as all genders belong to one sex or the other almost entirely).

From the other theory (the gender identity one) it would be something different?

There might be a difference in being attracted to certain aspects of people and sexual orientation. I am very heterosexual, but I tend to be drawn to only certain types of men. To me the former is orientation, the latter is preference.

Spot on again.

BellaAmorosa · 02/03/2023 07:15

nepeta · 01/03/2023 16:49

Or bisexual or pansexual works as nobody will test those!

I always found this way of using 'privilege' inane as depending on context it assigns over 90% of people into the special category of those who have their private laws. "Cishetero" is more than 90%, after all. It also suggests that nobody is treated correctly, that you are either privileged or under-privileged, and once you see the problem like that the solution is not necessarily to stop treating the underprivileged so poorly and to work to raise their status. Finally, it's all about words and nothing about real resource transfers.

Brilliant

BellaAmorosa · 02/03/2023 07:11

FlytingMachar · 01/03/2023 14:15

Interesting - the deletions
Cant really ever remember being deleted before under any user names, though i suppose it wasnt entirely relevant to the OPs question.
Is there direct communication from MN explaining reasons for the deletion or any right of appeal - I havent had any notification? I guess satire is verboten🤔

Are we not told if our posts are deleted or reported?

mach2 · 02/03/2023 06:33

My understanding of the TWAW view is not that a person changes sex but that sex is socially constructed/irrelevant and that one's innate sense of gender is what makes one a man or a woman. I place this belief with religious belief - something a person feels strongly but has no objective basis.

I consider it a million miles from what I've always understood transexualism to be - the manifestation of psychological distress with one's sexed body.

Being a childless bloke with few friends, my circle is quite TERFy and I haven't lost anyone over my views on the matter. No doubt if I had a wider social circle, I would.

Tabitha1960 - that is a horrible experience and I wonder how "be kind" can be squared with that level of personal cruelty. To me, it resembles a witch hunt.

Bard6817 · 02/03/2023 06:14

I always fall back on a simple phrase….

if a man wearing a dress doesn’t understand why women need to have single sex spaces, then he can’t possibly have an understanding of what it is to be a woman, so how can he genuinely believe he is one.

thus, if the man persists on his right requirement at the expense of many woman, it tells you enough about the man, predator or mysoginist, that they shouldn’t be around you.

when it’s a pro trans female teenager, they just need to learn about the sad realities of life.

when it’s an activist - I’d be the one blocking anyway.