KJK's film out at 8pm tonight

Thank you.

Please remember this to put the meaning the state of being a woman back into a legal category
www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4758082-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-3

A clip in which she says 'I personally have no issue with [single sex couples being parents]'?

This supports your assertion, how?

I am so fucked off with the GRA - this idea that a birth certificate isn’t supposed to be grounded in reality.

Adoptive parents, irrespective of their sex or orientation, should have the correct paperwork which enables them to act as the legal parent. I disagree that the child should have a falsified birth certificate in order to achieve it.

@EndlessTea seriously?

What if the child needs emergency medical treatment authorised by a parent? You think the sperm donor should do this?

Do you think straight adoptive parents should have any legal parental rights or is it just same sex couples you have a problem with?

<<An aside>> because of the nature of human reproduction- ie the mother gestates and gives birth to the baby, there is no doubt she is the mother she absolutely belongs on the birth certificate.
As for the father, the mother could be lying about who he is, she may have been raped by him or she may have been promiscuous at the time of conception, so there is no way of being absolutely sure that the man on the birth certificate is the father without a DNA test.
In the past, women used to be socially shunned if they fell pregnant out of wedlock, so it’s not uncommon to have a different man put as father on the birth certificate to make the child respectable/legitimate. I think there is still a bit of that now, so a lot of women don’t want to leave ‘father’ blank on the birth certificate.

In an ideal world the father on the birth certificate would always be the biological father, but because of the nature of reproduction that hasn’t always been the case.

However, this does not mean that we are free to totally misinterpret the intention of the birth certificate and pretend that all it documents is legal responsibility.

So it is fine for a straight married couples child's birth certificate to be biologically wrong, but not a child born from a lesbian couple?

I said the exact opposite of that.

I personally think that if a sperm doner is used that should be recorded on the birth certificate. The 'father' is only down on there by either a)its implied in law that in a heterosexual married couple the husband is the father (the same assumption cannot apply in same sex marriages as well biology) or b) in an unmarried heterosexual couple the 'father ' goes with his girlfriend and lies.(again a same sex couple can't for obvious reasons get way with this option either)

just because heterosexual couples can get round stating who the actual father is doesn't make it right.

I don't care about the feelings or the sexual orientation of the people bringing up a baby. I do care that the Child that is born has correct information on their birth certificate.

And a birth certificate should record biological facts that's it's one sodding purpose.

Man B

I know it is necessary for your beliefs to pretend that ‘father’ does not mean ‘the man whose sperm united with the mother’s egg to create the person’.However, reality doesn’t really give a stuff about your beliefs.

Well the law does does give a stuff which is why adoptive parents and non-biological parents are rightly on a child's birth certificate.

Man A cuts the baby's cord, holds her, comforts her, baths her, dresses her, changes her nappies, prepares her meals, helps her with her homework, gives her advice, and unconditionally loves her.

Man B donated the sperm so the baby can exist.

Which man is the baby's father?

And why should a married couple automatically be assumed to be the biological parents? If birth certificates are to be a biological record then every parent should have a DNA test before they can be added to the birth certificate.

@Boiledbeetle So it is fine for a straight married couples child's birth certificate to be biologically wrong, but not a child born from a lesbian couple?

Birth certificates are a social legal document. A lesbian mother who did not give birth to a child has no legal rights or responsibilities if she is not on the birth certificate. She can't consent to medical treatment, sign a form giving permission for a school trip. These are basic things.

Children born of sperm donor now rightly have a legal right to know those details and to know who the sperm donor is. Donors would not want to go on the birth certificate - for a start that would make them liable for maintenance payments.

To act as if birth certificates are simply biological records is to ignore that birth certificates have real life impacts if you are caring for a child.

Did she say that specifically or are you extrapolating from what she actually said? as I honestly don't know her opinion on that

I personally think that if a sperm doner is used that should be recorded on the birth certificate. The 'father' is only down on there by either a)its implied in law that in a heterosexual married couple the husband is the father (the same assumption cannot apply in same sex marriages as well biology) or b) in an unmarried heterosexual couple the 'father ' goes with his girlfriend and lies.(again a same sex couple can't for obvious reasons get way with this option either)

just because heterosexual couples can get round stating who the actual father is doesn't make it right.

I don't care about the feelings or the sexual orientation of the people bringing up a baby. I do care that the Child that is born has correct information on their birth certificate.

I know it is necessary for your beliefs to pretend that ‘father’ does not mean ‘the man whose sperm united with the mother’s egg to create the person’.

However, reality doesn’t really give a stuff about your beliefs.

What issue?

A sperm donor is a donor. He is not a father. Having a sperm donor's details on a birth certificate would not be beneficial to a donor conceived child. In fact it would just be confusing as the donor isn't their parent.

Knowing personal details about the donor, his family history and meeting him when they are old enough to understand is beneficial for donor conceived children. Having him on a birth certificate is not.

@Boiledbeetle plenty of women who are married have donated sperm from a clinic. She has no issue with those husbands being the father on the birth certificate.

You are saying the two lesbians should not have parental responsibility, so the woman that did not give birth is legally nothing to do with the baby.

It's the issue with the birth certificate listing two mother's and no father she has an issue with. I'd have an issue with that a baby had tho have a mother and a father. That's why we still exist as a species. No humming had come from two mother's off two father's.

So I'm still confused where did she say two lesbians can't have a baby together? They can in so much as they can make that decision fur one of them to have a baby and to raise a baby together but they can't actually biologically have that baby together.

So her issue is only with lesbians then as I suspected.

More tha happy to contact KJK's team and get you a slot on TERF talk tuesdays once she is back from Australia and NZ @AmandaJonah so that you can ask her your questions - which week would suit you best?

I don’t think, in that clip, KJK went into that much detail. You’d have to ask her.

So lies.

The birth certificate should be recording the biological parents for the child's benefit. Not be an ornament for the benefit of either parent.

It doesn’t matter if a man who donates his sperm ‘wants to be the father’ or not.

He is the father.

Sanitising the facts with fudged words and legal fictions don’t change it.

The baby may want to know all about their father and have a relationship with all their paternal family, for all you know, when they grow up.

Where has she said the same is true of opposite sex couples? Link?

If do then she caht be against lesbian rights can she @AmandaJonah shes saying everyone should be treated the same. Why do you think KJK is against lesbian rights when she says the same should be true of heterosexual couples. Surely that is the equality LGB people want?