KJK's film out at 8pm tonight

'Until now, female same-sex couples have had to pay for up to six rounds of private artificial insemination

Doesn't this include private arrangements with a male donor too? The requirement is to diagnose infertility, that's the reason there is a qualifying period.

So you support DNA testing before a birth certificate is completed so we know who the biological parents are?

Anyone who believes a birth certificate shouldn't record biological reality, has most likely never been in the situation of having a child require genetic testing for an inherited disability, only apparent after birth.

As someone who has been in that situation, this biological reality was hugely important for my child. Much much more important than any of my own desires or feelings.

Anyway, thanks both for replying.

Sounds like equal rights with heterosexuals to me.

Equality not good enough.

You demand ‘Rights+’… just like other human rights, but only for extra special people.

It is clearly trying to imply that lesbians getting pregnant is the same as gay men renting a surrogate mother who doesn’t want to sell her own biological child. It is very expensive. Loads of rounds of IVF cos she won’t do the syringe.

De-sexing and fudging the matter to bring about approval for our brave new world.

I do not consider these rights.

Women who came to a private arrangement often ended up in a nightmare. Men who said they would only donate sperm, once the baby was born sued and won 50% custody, Men who only wanted to be sperm donors ended up having to pay CSA. Women caught STDs.

have had to pay for up to six rounds of private artificial insemination

And this is a lie. In the past, women would come to an agreement with a man and use a syringe. Cheap and cheerful. The idea that women need to over-engineer it and use IVF is lies.

I think it is Arabella. I think “equal fertility” is a reasonable-sounding name for dystopian horror.

'Until now, female same-sex couples have had to pay for up to six rounds of private artificial insemination before being eligible for NHS treatment, costing couples tens of thousands of pounds and pricing some out of starting a family. The restrictions are even more complex for male same-sex couples where a surrogate is needed. In comparison, straight couples just have to say they’ve been trying to conceive for two years.'

From the article Sappho posted.

That seems to be conflating very different situations. Artificial insemination is very far removed from surrogacy. These are not the same things. Is this law paving the way to men claiming some kind of 'right' to surrogate children?

The ‘same terms’ would be if they are infertile.

It's not a radical new direction, a law was passed last year to secure equality for lesbian couples.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/lesbian-couples-gain-equal-access-to-nhs-ivfukk_62d7b431e4b0aad58d146a96/

Are you aware that these demands are not what most people think of when the think ‘gay rights’? That this is a pretty radical new direction?

Start another thread if you want to discuss it @EndlessTea

If straight couples with male factor infertility get state funded donor insemination / fertility treatment then lesbians couples should be offered the same.

You say fucking entitled, I say gay equality.

Of course no one is going to argue with “equal rights to straight people”.

But you are going to seriously explain what the fuck you mean by “fertility equality“, before we can go any further.

And nothing circular please.

Reproduction is heterosexual. So please explain the exact machinations of what you believe homosexuals (non-reproducing couples) are entitled to, in order for them to be ‘equal’ with heterosexual ones.

Apologies @UtopiaPlanitia

I never said they could.

Lesbians can't be the natural parents of a child Sappho, that's biology not homophobia.

@EndlessTea

Yes LGB people should have absolutely equal rights to straight people. Most people who accept this (the majority of people) consider themselves to be LGBT allies which is why it gets confusing.

TRAs come along and claim that male people should be able to claim women's rights. Of course this is fucking outrageous.

TRAs get support from the LGB community as TRAs remind gay men and lesbian women about the people who oppose gay marriage, fertility equality, lesbian couples both being on a child's birth certificate etc etc. This is all very recent history.

This is why TRAs have managed to capture so many orgs.

Could we spin this birth cert discussion onto a new thread of its own? It’s an interesting debate but I would like to hear what people thought about KJK’s film and this thread has deviated from that topic.

And it’s really similar. Any ‘hang on a minute, run that past me again?’ called ‘transphobia’ or ‘opposing trans rights’.

I think it is radical.

I would really appreciate Sappho and Amanda laying out what they think lesbian and gay rights are.

What they seem to be implying is for LGB to have an ‘equal’ right to everything heterosexuals have naturally, and for the state to be obliged to provide this and where it is physically impossible, for the state to fudge language and law so it appears to be equal on paper, even if this involves lying and trampling children’s rights.

Seems really TRA. Men wanting an ‘equal’ right to everything women have.

Seriously how do you get that from the threads on this board?

I for one do not oppose gay rights. But you need to be realistic that sometimes what might be best for you is not going to best for a child. Lying on a birth certificate is one of those things.

Birth registration is the right of a child to have a recognised legal identity and the rights that follow on from this such as a nationality, education, and legal protection.

You seem to have mushroomed ‘gay rights’ to mean something a bit different from what I always understood.

Please explain what you think lesbians and gays have a right to, beyond freedom from discrimination. Please don’t just make sweeping statements like ‘equal this and equal that’ if you are looking to upend biology, trample children’s rights and have massive dystopian state intervention to ‘equalise’.

Then I can say whether I oppose what you think those rights are.