Telegraph: MoJ to ban transwomen (male to female) from women's estate - links with specific details

How's Lammy going to cope with this one. Listened to Kate McCann and Adam Boulton this morning when they asked Dominic Raab about this change but didn't ask David Lammy. McCann is rabid left and has been know to let Labour off very lightly. I'm a lefty so it must be really bad. However, not fond of Lammy and his dinosaur comments. Kate would have had a real coup if she'd been impartial and asked the right questions. She asked Rabb, in light of the change if it now meant that TWAW, I can't remember the answer but he certainly didn't say they were. Bit muddled but it is Sunday after lunch and the odd glass of wine

Thank you, it's a start at least.

D) should not be allowed in. Think of someone like IW - stomps all over women's boundaries. Is entitled, verbally aggressive and unpleasant. Plastic surgery should not alter a males entitlement (or not) to be in a space.

My reading of it is any intact male, and any post-op male convicted of violent or sexual offences, would be barred

A, because they were intact and violent
B, because they were violent.
C, because they were intact.

Only D would be allowed into the female estate.

I was trying to have breakfast in bed whilst watching this buffoon spouting his nonsense. I almost choked on my bacon butty shouting at the TV so hard!

Only (D) will still be eligible - and statistically there will be very few if any in that category.

I'd also hazard a prediction that once this is established policy, the number of transwomen in prison will magically fall as some realise their Corporal Maxwell T Klinger grift has run out of road.

I found it a little unclear as to this will actually apply to. So in the following scenarios who will end up where?

A)violent intact male
b(violent post op male
C)non violent intact male
D) no violent post op male

Please note I am using post op to refer to male genitalia being removed - not Adams apple shaving or similar feminisation surgery..

I think this is quite a clever move. To exclude all males is where we need to get but doing it this way makes anyone objecting look unhinged: 'what, you think sex offenders with male genitalia should have access to vulnerable women!?'

To be quite honest, given so many (about 60%) are sex offenders and so few (about 5%) have their penis cut off, I wouldn't be surprised if there are none left to put in with women anyway.

I'm actually cautiously optimistic. I think it might be a bit like fox-hunting & the tories. A minority want to overturn the legislation, but wiser heads know the electorate as a whole aren't in favour.

Suddenly people against women's safety don't look quite so much like they are on the right side of history.

The usual line is that male people should not be forced into situations where extreme and risky surgery is incentivised.

I agree.

The only fair answer is no males in the female estate. At all. Under any circumstances. But better care taken of male prisoners within the male estate.

A male with his dick cut off could still be a threat.

At least it would put off male criminals claiming to be women.

Good news, but no man should be in a womens’ prison, no matter what he’s done, what he has in his trousers or what lies his birth certificate tells.

There seems to be this mentality that they cant exclude all males, and can only make exceptions when the public find out, and then only that particular subset of men.

We all can name men who claim to no longer have male genitalia who look, sound and behave exactly like every other man. But they are treated differently in law, for some reason.

At least until Labour get into power, slam all of this in reverse, and gallop us into nightmare at high speed
Indeed.

Was thinking more of the likes of Anneliese Dodds. I know that KS will keep schtum as he will be relying on the student vote next year.

Although I suppose that if this is overturned by male prisoners' legal teams then there's clear evidence that the law no longer works for females and will have to be changed.

At least until Labour get into power, slam all of this in reverse, and gallop us into nightmare at high speed.

Possibly some grandfather clausing, and yes, 'general women's estate'.... this would seem to open the door to a specific provision for male prisoners identifying as women, which would seem a much better solution.

However, we had the specially built unit at Downview for male prisoners who wished to be in the female estate, but were regarded as too dangerous. (A risk assessment might have actually been done properly.) If I remember, the legal teams of those male people raised hell about segregation, isolation, the utter appallingness of denying them full contact with biological females regardless of what that full contact might do to those females, and those males ended up in the full female estate. The unit has never been used for its intended purpose.

If this is serious, it's going to involve the first real 'no' and it will be heavily legally pushed. BUT the argument of 'male needs this and must not be deprived of it' does involve looking closely at 'where is it a male person's right to be provided with access to non consenting females'? and challenging very firmly the stated belief of 'yes, some women will be raped etc, but you shouldn't punish the good/nice males because of this and deny them access to those female people'.

Which is just horrific beyond belief.

We need the decent male people involved to start being clear that decent male people do not put females in this position or expect options that involve female harm.

The MOJ have expressed it more clearly than the Telegraph managed to:

*Question: What will happen as a result of these new changes?
As a result of the new policy, transgender women who are in future sentenced to custody and

have male genitalia

OR

who have been convicted of sexual offences
will not serve their sentences in the general women’s estate unless there are exceptional circumstances.

Question: Does that mean transgender women currently in the women’s estate will be moved into male prisons?

In relation to transgender women currently in the women’s estate, there will be a thorough assessment of individuals – both the risks to them and any risks they pose to others – before any move is considered. Transgender women who cannot be held safely in either the male or female estate can be held in a specialist unit.*

Although I note the caveat “in the GENERAL female estate” which, I assume, gives them some wiggle room on segregation within the female estate. So possibly still female guards.

I think this is a reasonable place to start. It might become clearer over time whether it is adequate or needs more refinement. I do wonder if they are thinking of exceptional cases where there are things like DSDs - so things like XY people born completely insensitive to testosterone, who to me clearly don't belong in a male prison. Maybe they'd fall under another rule, I'm not sure?

Do you think they’ll say much?

He seems intent on saying as little as possible. Or did you mean Rayner?

The new rules will also cover all transgender women with male genitalia and will apply regardless of whether transgender prisoners have a gender recognition certificate.
From the OP ^

Not males with intact genitalia, which is a start.
Also, if the prison service is implementing new rules that clearly state that even men with a GRC are not women then it should, theoretically, be possible to have the few remaining post op men in the female estate searched by male officers?

(of course, I would prefer no male officers in the female estate either but that’s a big tangent/rabbit hole and this thread deserves to stay on topic).

I realise that I am often the optimistic Pollyanna of FWR tho, so KPSS should definitely be seeking to have the policy re: searches clarified as part of these new approach.

So pleased that the govt are moving on this at last. Guessing that Labour politicians will be piping up in defence of these becocked 'women' soon though plus Squealer will pipe up shouting about transphobia. But change is afoot thank god.

Doesn’t that still leave female guards being forced into a position where they’re obliged to search males in the female estate?

There may not be so many, after this change in rules takes effect, but there shouldn’t be any. The men in for fraud, or any other non-violent offences, shouldn’t be able to game the system either.

'Isla' really did us a favour with those pink leggings