Idea to solve the toilet/changing room 'problem'

I agree all facilities need to change with changing attitudes.

Surveys and consultations show time and time again that the only way attitudes have changed is a hardening of the stance that single sex facilities must remain and actually be single sex.

What's so scary about someone identifying as male using a sink next to you?

Someone 'identifying' as a male would be a woman, a person of the female sex identifying as a man, so what point are you trying to make here?

The rest of your post, much like all your posts, is just risible tosh.

Most of us don't really care about gender identity when it comes to sex-segregated facilities. It's sex I care about, which is a result of genetics.

I don't really know what anyone's 'gender identity' might be - it's basically personality, isn't it? It might well be linked to genetics - many aspects of personality are inherited and are controlled by genes - but not to sex chromosomes in particular, though. No reason for XX or XY to have any specific characteristics, interests or feelings, or desires to appear in any particular way.

So definitely not a prudish attitude about gender identity here. Just a strong principle of sex segretated spaces being just that - segregated by biological sex.

Has the assault rate committed by males changed? Are the bulk of women less bothered about dignity issues when sharing more intimate spaces with males? If not, whose attitude needs to change? I think yours.

A man I didn't know, quite happily, without compunction, told me that I had a 'nice arse'' getting up close to me, at a bus stop in borad daylight when I was 19.

I don't want to share these spaces with men, no matter what they call themselves.

Another man assaulted me on a bus the same year. The men sat around us did/said nothing.

I rather think a group of other women would have done more.

I agree all facilities need to change with changing attitudes. What's so scary about someone identifying as male using a sink next to you? Single cubicles are surely enough, they don't even need to be floor to ceiling as a peeping weirdo isn't going to stick their head underneath their going to use a concealed camera in this day and age.

Surely if this was purely about safety (I don't think it is, I think it's prudish old fashioned attitudes about gender identify being linked to genetics) being in a toilet with strong individuals capable of defending you is safer than being the lone person in a discriminatory space segregated by genetics where a predator has been camped out for hours waiting to pounce on someone weaker.

Something about the last couple of pages is eeriely familiar. It feels just like the last few pages of this thread in chat. I can't put my finger on why...

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4725860-has-a-man-dressed-as-a-woman-ever-come-into-a-communal-changing-room-with-you-or-joined-a-specifically-female-group-you-belong-to?page=20&reply=123372035

No. Single sex toilets work.

Mixed sex toilets. Huge potential for hidden cameras. You think men would not exploit the potential? There's also the smell, the pee everywhere, the potential for being locked in ( a friend of mine got so drunk, she passed out in the toilet and blocked the door with her body).

We used to sponsor a girl through PLAN in Tanzania. One of the barriers for girls going to school was the toilets. Our money was used to help build separate sex toilets for the girls so that they would be able to go to school. This was the 2000s upto 2015.

I used mixed sex toilets as a teen

The school broke the law. All children aged nine or over are legally entitled to single-sex loos at school.

at hearing the noise of a pad being torn off the packaging -"URGH, she's on the BLOB!

The school arguably discriminated indirectly against the girls by failing to protect them from this sex-based harassment. Puberty is traumatic enough without having your privacy and dignity taken away. The number one reason for girls in developing countries discontinuing schooling is lack of privacy at school for dealing with menstruation.

It’s not up to girls to make their lives worse to make the boys better."

And that holds regardless of whether the boys in question identify as girls.

I used mixed sex toilets as a teen, due to building works at my school. It was honestly horrid. The boys were fucking horrid little fuckwits - at hearing the noise of a pad being torn off the packaging -"URGH, she's on the BLOB!" and queue 14 year old boys laughing and saying how we "stunk" etc. Boys trying to peer under doors. Boys constantly, CONSTANTLY, trying thr door handles when they knew full well a girl was in there. One boy even ordered a "skeleton key that he could then use to open the toilet doors. Boy piss everywhere. Fucking hated it.

@VoodooQualities are you Adrian Chiles doing a follow up on your toilet article?

or another journalist posting on here to get ‘the other side’?

As pp have said, the government has made its view clear. Which is the side practically everyone is on. Except it appears some young females who luckily haven’t had the experiences in life that which enable to see things from others point of view.

Interestingly the place near me that has now got a ‘gender neutral’ toilet due to a campaign that was started by a young non-binary biological woman, is used by men. The non-binary woman used the ‘gender neutral’ toilet for a few weeks but now uses the women’s. Haven’t asked her why but I would like to know.

If you are a journalist, I would start researching how girls and boys feel about mixed sexed toilets in schools. Especially those who have had them change so can see the contrast. Also ask the staff if they like mixed sex loos too. It still seems to be a thing that youngsters and male SLT and architects seem to push. The only thing I can think of with male teachers is that they think the girls being in the toilets will make the boys behave better. It’s not up to girls to make their lives worse to make the boys better.

I'm absolutely dumbfounded at a suggestion that removing single sex toilets in schools would reduce the risk of bullying?

Never mind the increased chance that even more girls could be raped or sexually assaulted in school, as a result of this set up being adopted in schools.

Sex Matters found that men and women both preferred single-sex facilities: sex-matters.org/posts/updates/why-do-single-sex-services-matter/

I don't see how OP's proposals will help, given that some TW will go out of their way to use women-only facilities even when gender-neutral/mixed sex ones are closer and more convenient.

That's quite a leap from what I said, as you well know.

Of course I don't think bullying in any form is OK. I disagree that mixed sex loos is the way to prevent it.

Yes, women's loos can be messy too, but much less so than mixed sex ones, in my experience. And even in perfectly nice single room loos like in cafes etc, even when perfectly clean and tidy men use them, they still smell different to when women use them. and since smells build up more in small cubicles that are used very frequently and where you might be waiting to use them, I'd really rather not follow a man using one.

Yes I have also been in places with individual mixed sex toilets, and yes I do find them worse than women's toilets.

If you want individual cubicles opening onto a hallway, then why not still designate them single sex?

I think schools can do other things to prevent bullying rather than build mixed sex toilets.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/philosophy/trackers/how-comfortable-brits-feel-using-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/philosophy/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces

Not a consultation, but online polling does not support a move to "gender neutral" toilets.

Your poor daughter. Fingers firmly crossed.

@VoodooQualities
Most people (the overwhelming response) want sex-segregated provision + accessible toilets, according to an actual recent survey.

This is why posters are asking why we would need a) another survey b) to potentially reduce the provision of single-sex toilets for the sake of at most 262,000 people out of 59,600,000 in England and Wales. That's less than 0.5% of the population - and some of them, like your daughter, are happy to use single-sex facilities, so the actual percentage is lower. Space is limited and money is tight. Single sex facilities are an absolute necessity for women, and the overwhelming choice of the public, so I say no to options which would allow providers to decide against them for cost reasons or virtue signalling points. It's too important. We need more singe sex facilities, if anything, not fewer.

Theres no problem to solve for women. We are happy with single sex facilities.

There isn't a concensus, that's what I'm seeing, though most are definitely saying I'm batshit and keep things single sex thank you.

Every survey, including the consultation I referred to has come out with a vast majority in favour of single sex toilets and in particular making sure that the single sex female toilets remain just that - resolutely single sex.

My original point was about young men and women though. Twenty somethings or whatever. There's millions of them, or so it seems from social media.

And? What particular need do they have that single sex toilets do not provide for? Essentially all they are doing is virtue signalling and trying to look good and the relevance of that to actual need is? Who are they to over-ride the non consent of any woman or group of women? Why do they in all their inclusiveness insist on excluding women, some of whom are already extremely vulnerable and marginalised in society, from the very facilities that were designed for them use, to provide them with safety, privacy, dignity and comfort?

Only the least tolerant, least progressive, and most callous could even contemplate that.

This idea has been suggested many times, and rejected by the TRAs.

What are your thoughts, Op?

How would having fewer toilets reduce queues?

That was really quite spiteful.

Feel better, do you?

😂😂

WHAT ABOUT THE CATGENDER FOLX??!!! EH?

AROGENDER DEMISEXUALS NEED THEIR OWN SPACES!!!