Trans-males in female spaces

@MyriadOfTravels
Im sorry but I have an issue with that
if a transman would find it triggering to be in a female space then it should be ok to say than its triggering for a trans woman to be in a men space. And you would expect them to neither trans men and trans women to want to share the facilities of their sex.

we can’t have one rule for one rule for the others. It’s either sex segregated or gender segregated because atm there isn’t such place to accommodate anything else.

Its a hypothetical situation working on the assumption that both genders of trans people would prefer to use their re assigned gendered toilet.
Being triggered isn’t the issue as to sex segregated spaces. There’s no reason shared or individual spaces can be provided for most things including prison to prevent anyone being triggered However most trans people say that’s uninclusive even if they know in reality a female identifying as a male is going to have real problems sharing a cell in prison with natal men
So maybe men don’t want trans men in their loos either. Loos are single sex and trans men are in fact female.

Some trans men, think buck angel, do pass, obvs not naked as buck still has a fanny, so I think the only way forward is to have third spaces, women, men and then the gender neutral/trans crew, cos some TM do pass and we would just think it's a man.... even if they are not, how would we know....

Very welcome if they wanted to - especially if it was a safety issue for them

I’ll have it all, frankly, if there are ‘genuine’ questions to answer. 🥃🍷🍸

triple for you @Boiledbeetle ? It’s a 3l one. Plenty for all.

I'll have another gin whilst you've got the bottle open. I'll pass on the cheese straws though. Datun had stuffed us all with cheese over in the KJK v the police thread.

Buuuuuurp!

I’ve got gin, vodka, wine or whisky? @hryllilegur and cheese straws?

urgh. These genuine posters with genuine questions are tedious.

Where’s the booze?

😂

I'll still say rules need to be consistent.

Because we aren't just talking toilets here we're talking everything, single sex, from inc hospital wards and changing rooms.

Young boys can be every bit as body conscious as girls. Same with older men. Urinals arent always very private. Everyone is vulnerable in hospital.

Why should men and boys have to compromise their privacy for some females who want to be men?

Sorry Signalbox, was agreeing with you there if not clear enough!

Ok.

How about the rule 'inclusion matters for everyone' and 'everyone should have accessible provision' be consistent? Just for starters.

Exactly

@NotHavingIt
Woman/man and male/female are all biological descriptors. The first pair are a bit more specific, ie they refer to adult humans.
If you want a word to describe feminine/effeminate behaviour or gender expression, invent one.

Also, no man is at risk of a woman being in their prisons. All women are at risk of men in their prisons.

Completely agree. This is more about equity than equality. Women, due to our sex-based biological needs/risks/vulnerabilities need same-sex spaces. Men don't. If we ONLY looked at men's needs, we could argue easily for unisex spaces everywhere and we could argue for open sporting competitions (men would lose nothing, women would lose everything). We don't have consistent rules for men and women in specific sex-different areas.

Exactly.

The rules need to be consistent.

I wonder why do the rules need to be consistent?

Men are not adversely affected by women in the same way that women are adversely affected by men. Until men stop raping, flashing, harassing, groping, touching and making women feel uncomfortable it is perfectly reasonable that the solution to this is be one-sided.

@MrsTerryPratchett
Spot on. Men and women are not the same and the relationship is not symmetrical. Women who claim to be men, if they are taking testosterone, are a bit more aggressive than other women, but nothing like male levels - which of course includes men claiming to be women.

@itsturtlesallthewaydown
I think if a woman passes so well as a man that they could trigger PTSD, they probably do use the men's toilets. Which is fine as far as I'm concerned because they pose no threat to men. They don't attack them or install hidden cameras. There are no sanitary bins to raid. The only danger is to the female, really. If men don't like it they can speak up, but going on anecdotal evidence, they really don't care either way whether people of either sex use their facilities. Unlike women, men do literally just pee in public toilets. No period pants or menstrual cups. They don't routinely have to partially undress to use the urinals or toilets. A few women who claim to be men have said, either on this board or on twitter, that they make special arrangements and use neither the men's nor the women's loos. Regarding rape crisis, hospital wards, these females are going to need specialist care if they have medically transitioned anyway.
It's simply not the case that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, which is the premise of your thread. Women are not a threat to men. Females and males claim a special identity for very different reasons.

I think I would be inclined to do this. An open / mixed sex facility for men (however they identify) and any female people who do not feel comfortable using the ladies and then a women's only facility for all the women who want to keep to a single-sex approach.

And I wonder if men would even care. I've never heard men complain about female people using their facilities. There are no campaigns around this issue. I've never heard men say they feel threatened or at risk by having to share facilities with TM.

If things continue the way they are this is the least worst option for women and girls and that's who I really care about. Atm it is the women's facilities that are being changed to mixed-sex and the men get to keep theirs. This needs reversing I think.

I think some men do care particularly in spaces like changing rooms and hospital wards.

The rules need to be consistent.

The toilets system worked, not perfectly, but sort of worked because most people accepted the rules. The debate now is based on the assumption that this implicit social contract no longer exists and that some will insist on disregarding it.

Once you have that, then it is possible to ask how some people now can be kept out of single-sex toilets when they refuse to choose the option matching their sex.

The reframing of this problem matters. When we are asked if we should now have genital inspectors at the doors of women's toilets we should remind the questioner that in the past (and even today) most people were aware which toilets were for which genitals.

Why is it the problem of women who need single sex female spaces to sort out everyone else?

It isn't. Female people need female only spaces for equality of access. End of.

Male people wishing to use female spaces need to respect this. They certainly expect a lot of respect from everyone else, and if they care about equality and inclusion and expect others to provide it for them, they need to equally respect and provide it for everyone else.

Male people who do not want female people in their spaces will have to sort out their own issues, we're busy.

Female people who have created a major issue for themselves in using spaces where females may become alarmed or distressed at their presence because of the degree of their appearance change will also need to sort out their own arrangements.

#Notyourmum

Plus: this kind of query is usually nothing more than a barely figleafed attempt to punish and discourage women for daring to say they refuse to accepted being excluded by men. <shrug> "If you don't let men in your spaces then you'll get women with a masculine appearance and then you'll be sorry".

It's not exactly a classy or helpful thing to do really.

Stillcountingbeans · Today 16:56

^Do men really care about transmen "invading their privacy and offending their dignity"?

It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. To be honest, the antisocialisation of the men's facilities would mean that they were not acknowledged either way. We go in, studiously avoid eye contact and leave.

The problem is that we just don't care about our spaces in that way.

(Aside from historically, where men were fiercely protective of their golf clubs, gentleman's clubs etc. I presume the reason for that was having somewhere to hide from "the wife")

We're not generally at risk of violence from women, our world records aren't at risk from women, so it doesn't really bother us if they're in our spaces.

The only reason I'd care about a trans man in the male toilets is that they'd be hogging the limited number of cubicles, and I get spectacular stage fright so hate the urinals!