KJK opposing fertility treatment for gay couples

So lesbians don't want men in any way unless they can harvest their sperm? And saying that lesbians do not have an automatic right to use men for their sperm alone is discrimination?

There’s also a great documentary about this topic called Eggssploitation. It completely opened my eyes. It was quite shocking. (I think it’s available on youtube)

Floisme - Sapphos did not say this "I don't actually think KJK is homophobic herself but she is very comfortable sending an open invitation for homophobes to express anti-lesbian sentiments openly" - umbel did.

Here: I donated my eggs AMA www.mumsnet.com/Talk/AMA/4715888-i-donated-my-eggs-ama

There is a really eye opening AMA from a woman who donated eggs on here. I had no idea how awful the process was and they really didn't explain it to to her.

thankfully paid egg donation isn’t a thing here

That's true in the same way that paid surrogacy isn't a thing here. It is technically illegal, but unscrupulous people find a way round it. For example, by offering women who are struggling with fertility absolutely huge (ie thousands of pounds) discounts on IVF treatment.

It’s way worse when it gets to egg donation - at least sperm is easy to extract from a healthy, functioning male body without any consequences to the man’s health or future fertility.

Whereas egg retrieval and the side effects of the drugs involved can have life long effects on a woman’s health - thankfully paid egg donation isn’t a thing here but in some countries it’s normal for egg donors to be middle class college students (usually white) suckered into paid donation by the normal temporary cash flow issues student life can bring and for surrogate mothers to be of lower economic status, often located in developing countries (and thus likely to be women of colour).

Some of these young egg donors have lost their own fertility in the process of these invasive medical practices. It’s grim.

Whenever I post on Mumsnet threads about surrogacy/fertility tech I get a run of ‘Give women the gift of children! We’ll pay your for your eggs!’ ads on YouTube.
It’s predatory.

Also, the same drugs we have learned to be highly suspicious of as ‘puberty blockers’ are sometimes used by Big Fertility- women have reported all sorts of terrible side effects.

Helping infertile or same sex couples have babies sound like such a lovely thing on the surface but underneath the veneer it’s very murky.

Perhsps one of the most heartbreaking outcomes of IVF is when it fails for a woman who donated some of her eggs due to financial coercion.
That she may have a biologically related baby out there who is another woman’s child must be a fucking horrendous thing to come to terms with on top of reconciling with her own infertility/childlessness.

That this may disproportionately be happening to lesbian women is something I hadn’t considered, and this is the sort of infertility inequality on the basis of sexual orientation that really needs to be examined, imo.

I can see how it could act as an open invitation for homophobes to express anti-lesbian sentiments openly

This is from your previous comment and I meant to respond to it in my previous comment but hit reply too soon.

I think it’s absolutely fair enough to request/remind feminists and women’s rights campaigners of all sorts to be vigilant about not allowing open and realistic discussion about fertility tech to be used as a respectable-looking cloak for actual homophobia.

We should also be careful not to let fertility tech be used as wedge between women of different sexual orientations (or between women of different cultural/religious/class backgrounds nor between women of different ages or as an excuse to marginalise women with serious illnesses or disabilities).

The same goes for other difficult emotional/ethical topics eg abortion.

Kemi Badenoch’s comments yesterday re: Kate Forbes’ religious beliefs were a great example of how we can disagree respectfully without using our personal differences as political capital or attempting to shame each other into publicly professing agreement.

I think it's important to be clear that KJK wasn't responding. Sapphos has used a screenshot which makes it look as if that's the case, but KJ's comment is a stand alone tweet.
Why Sapphos chose to present her op this way, I obviously do not know. It was pointed out to Sapphos very early in the thread that it was misleading but I haven't seen her acknowledge this.

So no one should ever say anything, in case a homophobe says something in response?

It doesn't seem to be adopted in general in the case of giving a platform for misogyny, does it?

So no one should ever say anything, in case a homophobe says something in response?

This thread is the most batshit thing I think I've ever read.

If it's trying to bolster the complaint against KJK you've probably left it too late and it's very, very weak sauce. "KJK knows how babies are made" is not the killer blow you seem to think it is.

If you're trying to prove your TRA credentials, however, you're doing a good job. Batshit accusations - check. Denial of biology - check. Disconnection from reality - check.

I don't actually think KJK is homophobic herself but she is very comfortable sending an open invitation for homophobes to express anti-lesbian sentiments openly.
'very comfortable....' Here you are again Sapphos, speculating about KJK's inner feelings and her motives for saying what she said. And yet when other posters speculate about your motives for starting this thread, you object and ask them to stop. What do you think this says about you?

I don't believe we should let the miscellaneous 'phobes make us, however indirectly, police our language. Look how that's worked out regarding transphobia. I hope that any homophobic responses to KJK's tweet elicited at least some push back. It's better to drag their nonsense into the sunlight.

I don’t find KJK’s comment as a stand alone anti-lesbian, and am all for pro-realism and clear language, but I can see how it could act as an open invitation for homophobes to express anti-lesbian sentiments openly

Yes. And WTF was the comment she was responding to anyway? Children are the natural result of a desperate drunken het shag out the back of the local as much as they are a 'loving relationship'.

umbel, I completely agree with you regarding the ethics of "discounts" in exchange for egg donation. It needs a massive regulatory overhaul imo. It is not allowed (in the UK) to buy and sell gametes. Getting round this by paying excessive "expenses" when many women struggling with infertility are already pretty vulnerable in more than a little concerning. I nearly fell victim to it myself a number of years ago. Thankfully, my mum talked me out of it.

Thank you for this post.

I think currently my opinions (theoretically, I admit!) fall where you and your wife landed practically.

I believe that non-ideal parenting situations must be faced head on and mitigated as much as possible, whether that’s a straight woman leaving her unhappy marriage or a lesbian/bisexual woman in a same sex relationship (or single woman of any orientation) making the decision to have a baby via donor sperm.

Similar line with surrogacy/adoption - babies should not be made with the intent of removing them from the custody of their mother at birth, although I accept that in some specific cases that is the best option for the baby. That removing a newborn from it’s mother for the baby’s own best interest is so serious that it takes multi agency input and a court hearing should not be able to be circumnavigated via surrogacy.

Recognising the seriousness of removing s newborn from it’s mother doesn’t mean that men in same sex relationships can’t be fantastic parents - which is the sort of insane logic leap you need to present doubts about the consequences of Big Fertility tech as homophobic.

(the straight, fertile, able bodied, coupled women with fertile male partners who commission surrogacy babies for purely social/career luxury reasons are actually the big fertility customers I think most poorly of!)

(Also I am skeeved out by the men who offer sperm to pretty much any woman who
requests it via non regulated methods - they ping my creep/pervert radar! Very different to donating to friends/non-blood family once or twice tops)

KJK seems to have an ongoing beef with same sex couples having fertility treatment. Why? How is this benefiting women's rights?

Personally, I have huge problems with the whole fertility industry. I think that all forms of surrogacy should be banned.

But if we are going to allow it, I have no more problem with two women accessing sperm (or, if they cannot get pregnant through donor insemination the full service of IVF) or two men accessing a surrogate than I have with a naice heterosexual couple not being able to procreate via het fucking without contraception.

There is no difference to me.

But Sapphos, you appear to be thinking that the people talking here about fertility not being a lesbian issue, are also homophobic. As a result of your own thread!

You might as well say that you too started a thread that's going to attract homophobia

No one has a right to a child.
Infertility is sad, but not life threatening.
The inability to have a child due to being in a same sex couple is not for the NHS to fix.
I don't actually agree with fertility treatment on the NHS for straight couples either, and I say that as someone that gave up on having children.

What you got was a pretty good discussion about the ethics and consequences of donor gametes., regardless of the sexual orientation of the gamete-recipient.

I agree. The ethics of donor gametes are something I had not previously given much thought but this thread has been very informative and given me lots to think about.

To add around the Big Pharma concerns, there is huge pressure from within the industry to exploit women for their gametes. Lesbians accessing assisted conception services are very vulnerable to this. Instead of being offered IUI (simply depositing sperm in the uterus during the fertile window), they are pressured to opt for a much more invasive IVF procedure, being told it is much more successful (based on success rates for infertile couples probably) and offered a substantial discount on the cost if they donate eggs during their treatment cycle. Price points of IUI are kept artificially high to add to the idea that IVF is a better option financially. I don’t know if the pressures are similar within NHS services, but it would not surprise me. THIS for me is far more of a women’s issue than the idea of free treatment on the NHS for all - women’s bodies being exploited for the benefit of others.

That's very concerning. People shouldn't be encouraged to think of these invasive procedures as standard.

I hadn't thought of that either! But yes, if the accusations of homophobia towards KJK need this kind of batshit bolstering, then it's all rather counter productive.

Again.

To add around the Big Pharma concerns, there is huge pressure from within the industry to exploit women for their gametes. Lesbians accessing assisted conception services are very vulnerable to this. Instead of being offered IUI (simply depositing sperm in the uterus during the fertile window), they are pressured to opt for a much more invasive IVF procedure, being told it is much more successful (based on success rates for infertile couples probably) and offered a substantial discount on the cost if they donate eggs during their treatment cycle. Price points of IUI are kept artificially high to add to the idea that IVF is a better option financially. I don’t know if the pressures are similar within NHS services, but it would not surprise me. THIS for me is far more of a women’s issue than the idea of free treatment on the NHS for all - women’s bodies being exploited for the benefit of others.

Is wondering if one person, did a thing, a "conspiracy theory" anyway?

You'd need more people to make a conspiracy surely?