KJK opposing fertility treatment for gay couples

while straight couples are routinely offered it for free

You are mistaken. There are a lot of criteria to be met. It is by no means routine. Certainly not if you already have a child.

and the blunt implication in your messages that donor children will be fucked up purely because they are donor children is both offensive and inaccurate.

Maybe 'fucked up' is too strong, but there is definitely evidence that donor conceived children face emotional struggles due to not knowing half of their biological identity.

I am talking about gay equality. If you support lesbians having equal rights then you would support the NHS treating them the same as heterosexual couples.

But how can you make this a gay equality argument regarding female homosexual couples without also extending that ‘equality’ to male homosexual couples?

I don‘t believe anyone has a right to a child.

@Mummyoflittledragon what infuriating bureaucracy for you - that’s crazy!

As I clearly said very quickly in the follow up post, I was referring to treatment through the NHS or a UK fertility clinic

I was responding to the first post not the follow up which I have since read.

My point is that it is possible to be both. Those who say lesbians shouldn’t get free IVF because they don’t have fertility issues: should I have been allowed it after my third miscarriage (given that is when they often say there is a fertility issue for straight women who can very pregnant)? Or am I never allowed it?

Absolutely you can be both. You should be treated just like any one else would be for a medical condition. You should of course never excluded from treatment because of your sexual orientation.

referring me to other parts of this site that I have spent plenty of time on like suddenly they are going to make me agree with you is condescending and patronising.

I was referring to it generally as a place everyone here can learn more should the be interested. Many do not know that board - and the surrogacy board - exist. Nothing I have posted here is to make me anyone agree with me.

But clearly a U.S. Study run by the Catholic Church is not the best source of data, not least because of how different the regulatory framework is in the UK.

The numbers provide broad data and the relevance is the genealogical bewilderment point re ID release. There are other studies, but I don't reject studies due to their source, I would reject them due to the robustness of the data. Had the study found the opposite results would you reject it?

Donor conceived children do sometimes suffer as a result of their type of conception and to dismiss that entirely is drawing a conclusion based on a opinion already formed.

There are tons of us out there, who don’t or didn’t qualify. It just is.

I wasn’t able to access fertility treatment on the NHS. Effectively I should have been able to get it as NI was getting paid to the UK from dh’s salary and had been for years both whilst living in the UK and within Europe. I was within the usual age range for NHS assistance and were both childless. But as we were living in (as was) another EU country, I / we didn’t qualify. As the NI was getting paid in the UK, we also didn’t quality in our country of residence either. Bloody annoying, especially as we could have got all the rounds almost for free where we were residing as the rules are a lot more generous.

It is hard. However, I don’t think it should be made a women’s rights issue due to be the corresponding men’s rights issue as already mentioned. If donating eggs ever becomes a prerequisite to NHS help, I would rather have remained childless than give up my genetic material. I couldn’t bear to think there’d be part of me living out there somewhere with parents unknown and especially had my ivf failed.

Thanks @Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis, I really appreciate that.

But two women can’t conceive as a couple because they both produce the same ‘half’ of the necessary starting material. There’s nothing ‘wrong’ with either of them, it’s just ….biology.

A woman needs a man, specifically his sperm, to produce a child.

A child a product of a man and a woman.

Two women obviously cannot create a child!

That's just simply a biological fact!

Shamoo that is shocking, of course the cause of your miscarriages should be diagnosed exactly the same as any other woman. I’m really sorry to hear you were treated like that when going through such a horrendous time.

Like I said in my previous post on this topic, I’m not going to get dragged into a discussion on this with people who are clearly against donor children. But clearly a U.S. Study run by the Catholic Church is not the best source of data, not least because of how different the regulatory framework is in the UK.

FYI, referring me to other parts of this site that I have spent plenty of time on like suddenly they are going to make me agree with you is condescending and patronising.

Absolutely. Shown her true colours as a homophobe.

This is logic that is hard to argue actually.

I am talking about gay equality. If you support lesbians having equal rights then you would support the NHS treating them the same as heterosexual couples.

The NHS, for the most part (aside from idealogical capture) deals with the reality of physical bodies and human biology. It doesn't deal in human rights and there are some very obvious differences between same sex and opposite sex couples that people are trying to point out to you where equality has nothing to do with it. The IVF post code lottery with NHS Trust policies and funding is far more relevant than what you are arguing here.

When it comes to Infertility treatment I don't think same sex couples can possibly be treated in the same way as opposite sex couples and again, it's nothing to do with equality, they are simply different with very, very different challenges, which again, I think has been pointed out to you OP.

:)

Assisted conception & donor gametes is an ethical minefield and crikey knows kids come into being in all sorts of non—ideal ways. We just have to do our best to mitigate the non-.ideal bits however they come about (and far more kids are raised in single parent homes due to relationship breakdown/shit dads than donor conception).

I wish we could talk about all these concepts without taking it personally but I realise that’s probably pie in the sky when having children/not having children (by choice or due to infertility) is such a big topic in Women’s lives.

I’m glad to read your comment and I’m glad you have your child
My opinions re: the NHS and donor gametes & Big Fertility as a whole doesn’t mean I can’t be pleased for you on a personal level and it certainly doesn’t mean I have any judgement towards you as a mother. I’m glad you don’t see it that way!

It is the normal way to conceive a child.

Maybe it's heteronormative when it comes to recreational sex, but for procreative sex there is definitely a 'normal' way. Sad but true!

Yes that's right.

You don't have any control over who replies to or quotes your tweets unless you have a private account. We all get arseholes at times.

I don't support the use of donor eggs.
I don't believe the NHS should pay for fertility treatment for people who are fertile.

I'm not sure I believe the NHS should pay for people who aren't fertile, but realise I'm not the best person to being making that call. I've got two birth children, and have fostered more.

I'm not sure we can always have what we want, when there's not enough to go round. Like it or not, everything is rationed.

For what it’s worth, I paid every penny of my treatment myself, including all the miscarriage investigations. Because the NHS also wouldn’t fund any support in relation to helping diagnose the cause of my miscarriages, because I’m gay. So the NHS ranks straight infertility above gay infertility (in my NHS area, at least).

This is where the inequality lies. Investigations and treatments for the issues that cause infertility should be provided to all women on the NHS.

@SapphosRock " Two lesbians having IUI or IVF is totally different and is a fertility issue. "

No it isn't! Not unless one or both have a medical problem that stops them from conceiving and let's be honest, they could quite well conceive without undergoing a medical procedure if they chose to close their eyes and think of England, while they do things the normal way, if they are desperate for a child. Either that, or the old turkey baster! They do not necessarily have to go to the expense, time, trouble and pain of using a fertility clinic and associated medical personnel.
It is only a fertility issue if one, or both are infertile!

I’m not stupid. I know that being gay didn’t give me five miscarriages. I also know plenty about the methods I can use to get pregnant. But plenty of people on here are putting in place a very clear divide between lesbians and infertile women. My point is that it is possible to be both. Those who say lesbians shouldn’t get free IVF because they don’t have fertility issues: should I have been allowed it after my third miscarriage (given that is when they often say there is a fertility issue for straight women who can very pregnant)? Or am I never allowed it?

For what it’s worth, I paid every penny of my treatment myself, including all the miscarriage investigations. Because the NHS also wouldn’t fund any support in relation to helping diagnose the cause of my miscarriages, because I’m gay. So the NHS ranks straight infertility above gay infertility (in my NHS area, at least).

Are you still talking about the tweet you've posted in your op? Because she specifically talks there about both men and women.

Not directed at my posts but

and the blunt implication in your messages that donor children will be fucked up purely because they are donor children is both offensive and inaccurate.

"The study is the first representative, comparative examination of the identity and well-being of the adult offspring of sperm donation. It is estimated that 30,000-60,000 children are born every year through sperm donation in the U.S. alone.
The study found that young adults who were conceived through sperm donation exhibit higher rates of confusion, isolation, depression, delinquency and substance abuse than those who were raised by their biological parents.
Two-thirds of the donor-conceived adults agreed with the statement “My sperm donor is half of who I am.” About half reported being disturbed that money was involved in their conception.
More than half said that when they see someone who resembles them, they wonder if they are related, while nearly half said they have feared being attracted to or having sexual relations with someone to whom they are unknowingly related.
In addition, two-thirds of the donor-conceived participants affirmed the right of donor children to know the truth about their origins, and about half have concerns about or serious objections to donor conception itself, even when the children are told the truth.
The report offered 19 recommendations to leaders in the areas of law and health; media and popular culture; parents and would-be parents; and civic, social, and religious leaders in the U.S. and around the world. Raising questions of the ethics, meaning and practice of donor conception, the recommendations ask society to consider, “Does a good society intentionally create children in this way?”
Donor-conceived Alana Sveta tells her story on http://FamilyScholars.orgg_ . She describes how she often tells people that her father is dead so she will not have to tell them the truth about being conceived by a sperm donor, a fact that she considers “creepy” and “disgusting.”
“It embarrasses me,” she said.
Sveta said that other donor children feel the same as she does, but have remained largely voiceless. “It’s just that we, the children, haven’t been empowered to vocalize our issues yet. The needs and concerns of our mothers and their partners have trumped and stifled our own,” she said.
Olivia Pratten agreed. “Unfortunately, many of the physicians who run the fertility clinics continue to ignore or dismiss what we say as being a 'bitter few,'” she said. “As this study proves, we are not a few.”

Yes it's a religious source www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/19961/study-shows-problems-for-adults-conceived-by-sperm-donation

The numbers are higher than this though...

bioethics.hms.harvard.edu/journal/donor-technology

And I would encourage a quick look at the donor conception board for more on donor conceived children, not just the donor conception.

I believe unexplained infertility is funded yes.

Unexplained infertility is a diagnosis which follows on from having numerous investigations and the reason for infertility not being clear. Not conceiving in a lesbian relationship is hardly “unexplained”