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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are the filmmakers of Affirmation Generation anonymous

108 replies

socialmedia23 · 21/02/2023 22:46

DH was actually becoming very convinced by their arguments but then he asked me what was the source? This was triggered by the fact that there was footage of Helen Joyce on GB News. I actually found this documentary on Mumsnet so I didn't actually know. We stopped watching halfway and we did a deep dive into the people behind the documentary

DH has always been very insistent that he needs to establish the provenance of all the news sources/media that he consumes in order to ensure that they are not fake news sources. Since we can't find anything, he is now convinced that the entire documentary is garbage since we can't establish who is behind them and from what we can surmise, it seems to be a group of mothers of trans kids (many of whom are keeping their identities anonymous). Is it that necessary for them to be so discreet regarding their identities? There is also little coverage of this documentary, which lessens its credibility in DH's eyes.

I feel like a lot of people may think like DH and this would mean that an excellent documentary doesn't reach its intended audience. I feel sad because i was really enjoying the documentary and i felt like i was learning so much but then it is overshadowed by the fact that I don't actually know who is behind it! Dh might sound very unreasonable in what kind of media he permits himself to watch but that is because he attended an ultra orthodox jewish school as a child (where he was told many untrue things) and had a father who was a bit of a conspiracy theorist so he has learnt this way of filtering information (only read news and consume media from reputable sources). I tried to explain to Dh that they are keeping their identities anonymous foe fear of losing their jobs. However at the same time, doesn't that mean the whole argument isn't as convincing and isn't the point of the documentary to educate?

To be fair to DH, he does say he will read Helena Barnes' book about the Tavistock Clinic (recommended by FT) and maybe he will then be ready to watch this documentary...

OP posts:
Farmageddon · 22/02/2023 14:16

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 14:08

I guess it's a conversation we need to have as a society. Hopefully a civil conversation which I fear based on this thread is not possible given that it is only extremists on either side who seem to be involved.

The documentary did mention that and I agree. It said that the people in the silent center need to make their voice heard as well.

If you think this thread isn't civil, try going on a trans reddit group or something and questioning their motives or even misgendering them - you will get threats and abuse.

It's always the women who have to be civil though eh?

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 14:14

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 14:08

I guess it's a conversation we need to have as a society. Hopefully a civil conversation which I fear based on this thread is not possible given that it is only extremists on either side who seem to be involved.

The documentary did mention that and I agree. It said that the people in the silent center need to make their voice heard as well.

Yes you are correct. 99% of the world’s population know that you can’t change sex, are disgusted at male access to women’s spaces and are horrified that some deluded people think that children should be medicated from a young age because they said they were really a boy. I’m not an extremist. I’m just in tune with reality. You seem to be under the misapprehension that your views are mainstream, when you sound quite removed from reality. The Jewish non Jewish friend just wiped any credibility you had OP, if you are going to try and argue with strangers on line again come up with something else as genuinely I’ve laughed my head off about it. It’s the silliest thing I’ve heard in ages

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 14:09

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/02/2023 14:04

there is an argument that we can choose what we identify as and it is basic respect for others that we accept their identity

hoo boy

of course there is a limit to this approach.

but you get to decide the limit, right? I don’t?

Yes the men in dresses get to decide if they are women and whether or not they actual even need to bother trying to look like a woman in order to say they are one. We just sit there and support them according to the OP as there is absolutely no harm whatsoever ok 🤷‍♀️

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 14:08

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/02/2023 14:04

there is an argument that we can choose what we identify as and it is basic respect for others that we accept their identity

hoo boy

of course there is a limit to this approach.

but you get to decide the limit, right? I don’t?

I guess it's a conversation we need to have as a society. Hopefully a civil conversation which I fear based on this thread is not possible given that it is only extremists on either side who seem to be involved.

The documentary did mention that and I agree. It said that the people in the silent center need to make their voice heard as well.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/02/2023 14:04

there is an argument that we can choose what we identify as and it is basic respect for others that we accept their identity

hoo boy

of course there is a limit to this approach.

but you get to decide the limit, right? I don’t?

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 13:58

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 13:48

Lol yes but everyone who was born and brought up a Jew will be laughing at you and your notions, which are ridiculous. Your friend isn’t Jewish, you are embarrassing yourselves with banging on about this. Someone pretending to be Jewish when they aren’t is just silly and pretentious. Someone pretending a man is a woman is dangerous, as it undermines the rights of women to female only spaces and denies biological reality. There has been plenty of harm caused by these policies, surely you are aware of this? If not you need to do a lot more reading yourself. At least you’ve given up all pretence of looking for info your husband!

So who do you consider a Jew then? Someone who has an orthodox conversion, or are reform or masorti conversions permitted? Also under what authority do you consider to be valid..Reform considers children of non Jewish mother's to be Jewish (if raised in the faith), I suppose you reject that as well.

Does your opinion change with the Supreme Court of Israel judgements.

It is a deviation from the original subject. But the point I was making was that I believe with issues of identity, there is an argument that we can choose what we identify as and it is basic respect for others that we accept their identity..of course there is a limit to this approach..I am happy to use someone's pronouns etc but advocating for full surgery to transition is something quite different. It's not all or nothing. You have a very binary understanding of the world and that inevitably leads to alienation.

OP posts:
Farmageddon · 22/02/2023 13:51

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 13:41

Actually a convert has the same status as someone who is born Jewish. They are not second class citizens. My point wasn't to go into the halacha of who is and who isn't a Jew. I mean different denominations have their own interpretation for a start. What about the orthodox converts in the USA whose conversions were suddenly revoked by the Beit Din in Israel. Were they suddenly not Jewish despite being Jewish for decades. I thought that was ridiculous.

But my point was that I think people are free to identify with what they are comfortable with. How does it hurt me whether my friend identifies as Jewish or not. Again it's the no harm principle.

But there is harm being done - the documentary you refer to in your OP and others that people have linked are demonstrating that harm. The fact that you want to ignore the harm to 'be nice' is where you and others on this board will disagree.

How much harm is acceptable to you?
The fact that men who claim to be women want in our spaces and prisons and sports teams is too much harm as far as I'm concerned. The fact that young people who are distressed are being put on hormones and a pathway to irreversible surgery is too much harm.

I would hazard a guess that your husband doesn't see the harm because he is a man who doesn't need to see the danger of other men using women's facilities because it's not a threat.

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 13:48

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 13:41

Actually a convert has the same status as someone who is born Jewish. They are not second class citizens. My point wasn't to go into the halacha of who is and who isn't a Jew. I mean different denominations have their own interpretation for a start. What about the orthodox converts in the USA whose conversions were suddenly revoked by the Beit Din in Israel. Were they suddenly not Jewish despite being Jewish for decades. I thought that was ridiculous.

But my point was that I think people are free to identify with what they are comfortable with. How does it hurt me whether my friend identifies as Jewish or not. Again it's the no harm principle.

Lol yes but everyone who was born and brought up a Jew will be laughing at you and your notions, which are ridiculous. Your friend isn’t Jewish, you are embarrassing yourselves with banging on about this. Someone pretending to be Jewish when they aren’t is just silly and pretentious. Someone pretending a man is a woman is dangerous, as it undermines the rights of women to female only spaces and denies biological reality. There has been plenty of harm caused by these policies, surely you are aware of this? If not you need to do a lot more reading yourself. At least you’ve given up all pretence of looking for info your husband!

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/02/2023 13:43

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 13:42

Synagogue has mixed seating tbh so not an issue.

Oh well that’s fine then

I’ll pick up some tampons for your chum

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 13:42

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/02/2023 13:24

Or menstruate?

where you sit in synagogue is definitely negotiable

being born with the kind of body that gestates babies ain’t

Synagogue has mixed seating tbh so not an issue.

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socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 13:41

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 13:24

Also you, a convert to Judaism, have a bit of a cheek telling people born in to Jewish households and brought up as Jews in a Jewish community who is or isn’t a Jew. Actually it’s very like blokes in frocks setting themselves up as the arbiter of who is a woman.

Actually a convert has the same status as someone who is born Jewish. They are not second class citizens. My point wasn't to go into the halacha of who is and who isn't a Jew. I mean different denominations have their own interpretation for a start. What about the orthodox converts in the USA whose conversions were suddenly revoked by the Beit Din in Israel. Were they suddenly not Jewish despite being Jewish for decades. I thought that was ridiculous.

But my point was that I think people are free to identify with what they are comfortable with. How does it hurt me whether my friend identifies as Jewish or not. Again it's the no harm principle.

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ILikeDungs · 22/02/2023 13:39

PS your friend is not a Jew, they are a poseur. That’s the most ridiculous example I have yet heard.

Yes that really jarred with me too.

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 13:24

Also you, a convert to Judaism, have a bit of a cheek telling people born in to Jewish households and brought up as Jews in a Jewish community who is or isn’t a Jew. Actually it’s very like blokes in frocks setting themselves up as the arbiter of who is a woman.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/02/2023 13:24

Thelnebriati · 22/02/2023 13:20

So if your anarchist friend identified as a woman would she then be able to sit with you and the other women in the synagogue?

Or menstruate?

where you sit in synagogue is definitely negotiable

being born with the kind of body that gestates babies ain’t

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 13:22

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 13:17

It's not about whether it's true whether a man who wants to be a woman is a woman..it's about whether society and the state should respect how people identify and the limits of this approach.

For example, I have a friend who is a political anarchist and identifies as Jewish even though he doesn't want to go through the conversion process for philosophical reasons. As someone who has been through the conversion process, I still treat him like any other Jewish person and I would say that he is Jewish and I think anyone who doesn't recognize him as Jewish is a bit of an arse. Cos he clearly identified with the community. People are also by and large welcoming to him.

I think my DH was thinking along these lines.

’It's not about whether it's true whether a man who wants to be a woman is a woman’ - No it is exactly about that. People can present as they like and should be able to live free and happy lives. That doesn’t involve collective self deception that a castrated man is a woman and that legally they should be treated as a woman. That’s clearly nonsense. That should also not include lying to children about the ability of humans to change sex.
PS your friend is not a Jew, they are a poseur. That’s the most ridiculous example I have yet heard.

Thelnebriati · 22/02/2023 13:20

So if your anarchist friend identified as a woman would she then be able to sit with you and the other women in the synagogue?

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 13:17

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 13:06

So he isn’t the brightest bulb then, that a young person can convince him quite easily that what he knows to be untrue is in fact true.

It's not about whether it's true whether a man who wants to be a woman is a woman..it's about whether society and the state should respect how people identify and the limits of this approach.

For example, I have a friend who is a political anarchist and identifies as Jewish even though he doesn't want to go through the conversion process for philosophical reasons. As someone who has been through the conversion process, I still treat him like any other Jewish person and I would say that he is Jewish and I think anyone who doesn't recognize him as Jewish is a bit of an arse. Cos he clearly identified with the community. People are also by and large welcoming to him.

I think my DH was thinking along these lines.

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CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 22/02/2023 13:09

Sweden are ahead of the curve at understanding the damage and trying to halt it.

Article from 2020:
amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/22/ssweden-teenage-transgender-row-dysphoria-diagnoses-soar

They realised that referrals went up when positive trans stories were in the media (evidence of social contagion) by 2022:

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/967835

And from this year: amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20230208-sweden-puts-brakes-on-treatments-for-trans-minors

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 13:06

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 12:33

He has a younger sister who is Gen Z and is very very pro trans (due to too much time on the internet). He was raised in an orthodox Jewish family,; only the primary schooling was ultra orthodox (and only for the eldest two). His family actually have fairly liberal views on social issues, the focus in his household was more on ritual than on social issues. Hence why my MIL let my DH's girlfriends stay over but woe betide my DH if he switched on a kettle on Saturday in front of her (though she has largely given up on that).

His sister has convinced him that this is a group of marginalized people and he thought that even if women can't turn into men because of magical thinking, we should let people believe what they want to believe. And even give them the legal means to allow them to do so. As for the toilets issue, we should have unisex toilets (I disagree with him on this as I don't want to go to unisex public toilets).

But if children are being harmed in the process, that's a different story..

So he isn’t the brightest bulb then, that a young person can convince him quite easily that what he knows to be untrue is in fact true.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 22/02/2023 13:03

There is a good Swedish documentary series too, called ‘The Trans Train’ - I think they’re up to 4 parts now:

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 13:01

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 22/02/2023 12:43

She is 24 this year..I think it is the community element. I do find it disturbing that she has very fixed views on gender roles- she told me the other week that it was her impression(from books) that mothers stayed at home after having a baby hence no need for expensive childcare. Tbh her mother also has that view (she WFH while caring for her 4 children with no childcare so she believes women should either WFH or stay at home with the baby rather than pay for childcare). If I believed that, I would not want to be a woman either as it seems bleak and quite limiting tbh!

I retorted that the last woman to give up her job for babies in my family was my great grandmother (who was a servant turned concubine) nearly 100 years ago and this has not been in the case in the West either for many years. I can see that transitioning to another gender would make sense if you think that women need to give up elements of her identity simply because she has babies (which is a regular biological function).

OP posts:
socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 12:52

Btw everyone, thank you for all the links. I will read them tonight and show it to him.

OP posts:
Datun · 22/02/2023 12:48

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 12:33

He has a younger sister who is Gen Z and is very very pro trans (due to too much time on the internet). He was raised in an orthodox Jewish family,; only the primary schooling was ultra orthodox (and only for the eldest two). His family actually have fairly liberal views on social issues, the focus in his household was more on ritual than on social issues. Hence why my MIL let my DH's girlfriends stay over but woe betide my DH if he switched on a kettle on Saturday in front of her (though she has largely given up on that).

His sister has convinced him that this is a group of marginalized people and he thought that even if women can't turn into men because of magical thinking, we should let people believe what they want to believe. And even give them the legal means to allow them to do so. As for the toilets issue, we should have unisex toilets (I disagree with him on this as I don't want to go to unisex public toilets).

But if children are being harmed in the process, that's a different story..

In that case, go and look at the women's groups who are trying to protect children. Eg Transgender Trend, Safe Schools Alliance.

Also, google the Cass report. Hilary Cass is a government appointed paediatrician who has recommended that the children's gender clinic at the Tavistock is shut down, due to the unethical and unevidenced medical/surgical pathway that the children are being funnelled down.

If you are genuine about harm to children being a different story, then you might look back on this thread as being something of a seminal moment.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 22/02/2023 12:41

I find younger Gen Z-ers are pretty over the gender stuff really. They’ve all seen Dylan Mulvaney on TikTok and said ‘no thank you’.

It’s Millenials that seem to have swallowed the woowoo unquestioningly.