Trans and losing my mind...

In order to move forward and implement meaningful change in any legal, political and social sense we need to understand the points of view of all involved in a conflict and find a way meeting the needs of different groups in as best a way that is possible.

Because this issue stems from something which is deeply ideological in origin and which has been around for long enough to affect a whole generation of young people, many institutions and organisations, and now involves the lives of many people who have transitioned ( some irrevocably) as well as their friends and families, it is not going to be an over-night solution.

Political campaigning, action, directives and law are going to be the first and most obvious routes to meaningful and lasting change. In order to attain that you have to have a degree of consensus won by public discussion and debate and through increased knowledge and awareness. You have to co-operate. That doesn't mean that you don't have any red lines, but it does mean that you have to listen to and and have dialogue with all parties.

Inevitably not everyone will be happy with whatever the outcome is, but things have to move forward unless you want a permamnent paralysis and stalemate with everyone screaming at each other.

@scratchedbymycat @NotHavingIt I can see your point, but I can also see why other posters take the hard line. We’ve had so much, ‘both sides’, ‘be kind’, ‘just compromise’ that women are sick of it. The compromises all seem to be on one side, and a compromise usually means both sides partly achieve their goals. It’s very hard to see why allowing males in female spaces (ie making all spaces mixed sex) will benefit women.

I can also see why some women are adverse to offering a “hand of cooperation”. Why is it womens job to help males to be more comfortable? Do women not have enough of a job fighting for our rights? How many of these males offer cooperation back? It’s not cooperation if only one side bends….

Actually all I hope is that people stop using emotionally manipulative language and express their thoughts clearly. And if others ask questions because they are confused by the stance, don’t assume you are being attacked.

I personally am fine with people holding different opinions. There are many issues discussed on this board where my opinions differ.

However, I also respect the many people who contribute here enough to not attempt to admonish and chide them.

I will ask you NotHavingIt if you don’t mind answering, if you use emotionally manipulative language where you accuse the majority of posters of ‘ripping into’ when that is clearly hyperbole when people read back and check as I did, and you use make accusations such as echo chamber, what would you expect the reaction to be ?

Genuinely, What type of response do you expect to receive?

I have every sympathy because I have been similarly mis-read and misunderstood. I've also posted for years albeit under a different user name and am as involved as anyone else here in pushing back against gender ideology and its consequences for women, girls, children and young people.

I think it stems from showing an inkling of an attempt to understand how we've got where we are; or appreciate a MTF 's experience and their attempt to communicate that. Some people read that as letting the side down, and everything else that you've said above.

People want you to be what I'd call 'Hard-line' which means, in effect, offering no hand of co-operation at all, and being activley hostile at all attempts to communicate. Doing that is translated as being happy to compromise women's dignity for men's desires and so on. When that is not what is being suggested at all.

Another aspect of this argument is that apparently, male only spaces are so dangerous, the logical response is for women to allow those susceptible to male violence into women only spaces. If not, women are responsible for any violence inflicted by men. Why is the inherent danger of male spaces never the issue?

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand the subtext in the 'inclusive' argument. It just proves that this ideology is nonsense - if 'gender identity' is a physical characteristic, why does it not necessitate a physical space? Why is it so important that female spaces are available?

Because that would be admitting they aren't female.

If you went for the idea of a 3rd space, really what you'd end up with is female and two categories of male normal and trans.
That's a lot of space, cost and maintenance for men in dresses who could use the existing facilities appropriate to their sex.

And why is there no campaign for 'trans' spaces and resources? The aggressive narrative that women only spaces should automatically be accessible should have been alarming from the start. The fact it wasn't speaks volumes

What do you want, a medal? What is your contribution to the fight for women's rights? Why should anyone care about your opinion?

Not one.

Not a single one.

I don’t care if you are a penis-haver or a former penis-haver.

The line, the only line, is male/female.

One no is a total veto.

I say NO.

You can’t override my lack of consent by committee vote.

I’ve black-balled ALL the ballsackcarriers.

Good men STAY out so bad men STAND out.

The handful of male transsexuals I trust are the exact same handful who don’t expect me to trust them.
They are the male transsexuals who stay out of women’s spaces and they tell other male transsexuals to stay out as well.

It's utilisation of the women, not the room

Datun has this nailed.

My work space has been "updated" to have a few single sex and predominantly gender neutral toilets.

The men use the gender neutral toilets because they are "nicer" having full doors - though the hand washing facilities are communal. No thought given to why women might need privacy not just toileting but the use of a sink.

It's become a male facility. Seats up, piss on the seats (there are no urinals).

Thus the women now use the small non refurbished two stall crappy doors facility. We queue regularly for the toilet next to one "neutral" with 20 stalls and a men's with the same two stalls as us plus urinals...

And yet......

Guess who still wants to share our tiny space ?

@Beeswood that was horrific.

I maybe wasn't clear in my post but I think preserving male / female spaces is what's needed. But it's the clothing stereotypes that needs to change.

re the paragraph about it being 'unfair for men to share hospital wards and their spaces with trans men and women'

Well I think article this shows it is much worse for biological women. Horrific.

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/hospital-says-patient-could-not-26506744

It's a killer, isn't it.

It's we who are the resource, not the space. It is we who are being provided as the service.

The space is irrelevant without us in it.

I have thought a 3rd space or changing the men's to gender neutral was the answer for a while. But really I've concluded it's probably not.

It will work for sport to have female and open / gender neutral.

But it is unfair to expect men to share hospital wards and their spaces with transmen or women. Men will feel uncomfortable with it for a variety of reasons fear of being accused, insecurity in their own body particularly as they grow older, and let's face it everyone is vulnerable to a degree in hospital.

The "living as a woman" thing is meaningless. So men who want to wear dresses and skirts need to own it and say I'm a man, in a man's dress. And this is what I keep in my man bag.
They need to work on it being as acceptable for men to wear dresses as it is women in jeans. The Metal and Rock stars have already pushed the boundaries of hair. You can be a big bold man with long hair and a dress.

It's utilisation of the women, not the room.

JFC Datun, you just blinded me with that truth!

The desire to transition was not created in me I was just born this way.

I have issues with this too. My brother always said this. He has no memories before the age of 7. I remember my mother from when he was really young saying 'you two were born the wrong way around. You should have been a boy and he should have been a girl'. He has no memory of this. I have however confronted my Mum about this, and she knows she did it. A LOT.

So I have something of a unique view of this, as I was the older sibling.

The other local kid turned out trans came from home which was extremely religious and homophobic. His sister had problems because of it too. I knew the whole family really well and again was older than them.

I think its coming from many parents for this reason. And kids don't necessarily realise it. I don't belief for a second the 'innate' argument. I've seen it up close too much to think that.

This seems to be a pattern thats emerging in the narratives of an awful lot of families where parents think the child isn't conforming to stereotypes. Its the opposite of the 'let toys be toys' mentality. This is all happening at a time where 'pinkification and blueification' has increased massively. Its not a coincidence.

@Bathhy your contributions on this thread are certainly interesting. It looks like you're saying that trans women are entitled to use women's toilets. If that's the case it seems to be at odds with the vast majority of the people on this thread, including the OP. What's coming through loud and clearly on this thread (sometimes incredibly loudly 🙃) is that single sex spaces (and sports and institutions) should be related to biological sex.

There have been some other very interesting contributions, including the mention of an app that helps trans women know where to find single occupancy facilities so that it's not necessary to "invade" women's spaces. This seems like a great solution to help keep trans women safe from the prejudice that they could suffer in men's facilities. Would you agree?

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/ian-wright-british-transport-police-birmingham-crown-court-b1062093.html

One of those things we are told never happens.

No biological men in women's spaces.

Thank god we are getting to speak out.

Delightful and marginalised

Such delightful people and oh so vulnerable.

And then there's Snow. Snow is a prolific trans activist and podcaster (IIRC), who has been interviewed by other outlets on trans rights.

Tweet 1:

Went swimming

Found they had open sex segregated changing

Chickened out and changed in the family changing cubicle

My goal this month ... actually use the open women's changing room

Not going to let the moral panic dictate where I go and what I do

I am going to swim

Tweet 2:

Going back to the pool right now.

And I'm going to go every day.

And I'm going to change where I need to. And there is nothing, absolutely nothing you can do to stop me

You can't shame me when my contempt for bigots is this low.

Have a good day wankers!

By the way this is obviously to @Bathhy not @TinselAngel

Exactly! If you really want to be supportive to women do that ! That image is awful how dare they but if we misgender them all hell breaks loose ! Can you not see it can you not understand why we might be a tad irritated