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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rayner on the Isla Bryson case

243 replies

ResisterRex · 18/02/2023 20:46

It's like they don't want to win.

Angela Rayner: ‘I overshare. Keir Starmer undershares’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a243ac9c-a7d0-11ed-999f-64d8c8a46b78?shareToken=bb096ff7b4ffc77b62d8a23af42fefd5

"Is Isla Bryson a woman? “The recent case?” Looking slightly thrown, she starts talking about guidelines, processes, safeguards, circumstances. “So from what I know about the case, I would not have been putting that person in a women-only prison.” But that wasn’t the question, so I ask again.

“Well, that person’s identifying as a woman now. But they’re right at the beginning of a transition — that they believe is right for them, however, and that’s fine. We respect that. That doesn’t mean to say by respecting it you instantly say, OK, well, that person then goes into a vulnerable space.”

Rayner keeps saying Bryson is “at the very start of the process” of becoming a woman, and keeps citing this as a reason why she should not be in a women’s jail. But Bryson began gender reassignment therapy back in 2020, shortly after she was charged. The SNP’s new Gender Recognition Reform Bill, which Labour voted for, would grant a gender recognition certificate (GRC) to any adult who declared they had been living in their acquired gender for just three months. In other words, had the law Rayner’s own party supports been in place when Bryson began her transition, she could by now have been legally female for more than two years. Even under the existing legislation, brought in by Labour in 2004, Bryson is by now eligible to apply for a GRC, although as far as anyone knows she does not have one. The Scottish Prison Service still remanded her to a women’s jail, though, because several years ago it quietly adopted a de facto self-ID policy — the very policy Rayner supports. By the logic of Rayner’s own stated beliefs, Bryson is categorically a woman.

Bryson, 31, claims to have known she was a woman since she was four. Does that mean she was a woman when she raped her victims? Rayner looks puzzled."

Continues at link

OP posts:
elgreco · 19/02/2023 00:37

Naoise is a man's name.

ProstheticConscience · 19/02/2023 00:09

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Are you advocating for rape to be an additional punishment for female prisoners, as well as being incarcerated? Or just posting outrageous drivel to stir people up? 🤔 Oh it is half term isn't it.

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 00:03

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FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/02/2023 00:01

howmanybicycles · 18/02/2023 23:42

I find this really offensive. There are not two sexes of women and you should not assume the identity (cis) of men. Irs actually simple by saying men can identify as feminine and call themselves trans, but single sex spaces are for people who are actually female (I.e. identified as female at birth)

Sure, but I'm giving it as a pragmatic way forward for politicians who have already boxed themselves into a corner by saying TWAW. They already use the compromised language of gender ideology. Since they aren't going to do a public 180, I want to get them to a place they can defend single sex spaces . I want to show them that even within the genderist framework they can still protect single sex spaces.

MarshaBradyo · 18/02/2023 23:48

ArabellaScott · 18/02/2023 23:28

Do you think? Because, you see, this is exactly what the SNP's line was up until recent weeks.

I'm not saying they aren't leading, clearly they are. But if they think the general public are on board with TWAW, they are fooling themselves.

I was going to say SNP too. It all looks great with polling until this stuff gets you. Happened to Penny M too who had good polling.

ElliF · 18/02/2023 23:43

Boiledbeetle · 18/02/2023 23:27

How can she believe something and want legislation changed for that belief but be unable to articulate why Isla has to go in the men's prison?

I mean what is the problem with this particular transwoman?

Why are so many of the true faithful having such an issue with the double rapist transwoman?

Hypocrisy and virtue signalling? The usual ‘woke’ rhetoric and dogma.

howmanybicycles · 18/02/2023 23:42

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/02/2023 21:54

The thing is, it's so fucking simple to accept trans identities without throwing The People Formerly Known As Women under a bus.

Out of the goodness of my heart, I offer this script to politicians looking for a path through this mess.

"Yes of course TWAW (1). In the bad old days we just thought it was about biological sex but we know now that sex/gender is a 《super complicated hand wavy thing(2)》and that being a women is really about how you feel inside.

"However, the fact remains that these old fashioned ideas about sex, misguided though they may be, are deeply ingrained in society and they do create genuine disadvantages and risks for people who in less enlightened times would be classed as women because of their body.

"So my party makes a clear commitment to maintain the single sex provisions as single sex, reserved for people born female until society has moved on to the point they are no longer needed.

"At the same time, my party also commits unequivocally to introducing new protections and support for women of both sexes, and new protections and support for trans people of all genders, to deal with the challenges these groups face that are unique to them. Because they deserve more than just the old fashioned single sex facilities with a new sign on the door. They deserve to be heard and seen in their own right, not simply lumped in with everyone else who is not a cis man."

(1) TWANW. But a politician who has previously stated they are, or who knows a significant number of their potential voters won't accept anything less than TWAW, we need to find a path forward that doesn't require them to now state TWANW.

(2) I had to give up here because any description of sex/gender that one TRA gives is instantly rejected by all the others. The putative politicians will just have to fill that bit in by themselves.

I find this really offensive. There are not two sexes of women and you should not assume the identity (cis) of men. Irs actually simple by saying men can identify as feminine and call themselves trans, but single sex spaces are for people who are actually female (I.e. identified as female at birth)

TheirEminence · 18/02/2023 23:39

But she doesn’t seem to have interrogated her own position on this issue very thoroughly at all, and looks increasingly confused when I try to.

This is very polite and very damning at the same time.

Also, how utterly callous to suggest that being sexually abused with “some implementation” wielded by a woman is the same as being raped by a man. Pictures of Isla Bryson made it very clear that this was a huge, bulky male who would have used his strength and weight to impose himself on his victims. I do agree with the TRAs that the focus on penises is a bit silly; it’s about the male body attached to it. Always male, never female. Rayner is just playing dumb. Dishonest.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 18/02/2023 23:32

Young people are overwhelmingly unlikely to vote Tory at the moment absolutely, 2 of my 3 would vote labour and the other wouldn’t vote tory

Young people are much more likely to believe TWAW all three are very aware TW are not W

ladygindiva · 18/02/2023 23:29

ditalini · 18/02/2023 21:30

She's a fucking coward. They all are.

I don't believe she credits it for a minute but she's seen what happens to women who don't conform and she doesn't want that to happen to her.

And she's happy to throw vulnerable women under the bus to protect her political capital. Gutless.

100% agree with this. She's yet another career politician.

StaunchMomma · 18/02/2023 23:29

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Right, cus prisoners shouldn't have human rights? Who gives a shit if they get raped? They broke the law!!

Why not just torture them and be done with it.

ArabellaScott · 18/02/2023 23:28

PermanentTemporary · 18/02/2023 23:03

Of course they've done the polling. Of course they fucking have! Don't be naive.

Young people are overwhelmingly unlikely to vote Tory at the moment.

Young people are much more likely to believe TWAW.

Theyve done the polling and they are doing what they think will win the election. I'm as GC as anyone, in fact I'd say I'm quite an extremist in my own way, but I hope I have a realistic view of politics. If you think 'everyone is GC' you'll continue to be shocked by events.

Do you think? Because, you see, this is exactly what the SNP's line was up until recent weeks.

I'm not saying they aren't leading, clearly they are. But if they think the general public are on board with TWAW, they are fooling themselves.

Boiledbeetle · 18/02/2023 23:27

How can she believe something and want legislation changed for that belief but be unable to articulate why Isla has to go in the men's prison?

I mean what is the problem with this particular transwoman?

Why are so many of the true faithful having such an issue with the double rapist transwoman?

ElliF · 18/02/2023 23:13

AutumnCrow · 18/02/2023 22:59

Anyway, yes I think Rayner has ended up being even more incoherent that Sturgeon over this.

She’s terrified of forming opinions, about anything it would appear, and isn’t capable of communicating clearly with the press.

ArabellaScott · 18/02/2023 23:12

This Angela Rayner?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/26/angela-rayner-stands-by-remarks-calling-tories-scum

Horrible person.

WinterTrees · 18/02/2023 23:04

Let's not forget Angela Rayner smugly tweeting that she was keeping a space on the green benches for Lily 'savile's apprentice' Madigan.

That's how sound Rayner's judgement is.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 18/02/2023 23:04

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Yeah yeah yeah….😒

PermanentTemporary · 18/02/2023 23:03

Of course they've done the polling. Of course they fucking have! Don't be naive.

Young people are overwhelmingly unlikely to vote Tory at the moment.

Young people are much more likely to believe TWAW.

Theyve done the polling and they are doing what they think will win the election. I'm as GC as anyone, in fact I'd say I'm quite an extremist in my own way, but I hope I have a realistic view of politics. If you think 'everyone is GC' you'll continue to be shocked by events.

ElliF · 18/02/2023 23:03

StaunchMomma · 18/02/2023 22:14

How many threads have we seen on here where the OP is asking for advice on how to handle gender topics eg pronouns or toilets in the workplace assertively but SENSITIVELY because they don't want to get into trouble? LOADS! Politics is Angela Rayner's job, why would she throw herself to the wolves by answering THE most contentious question of the moment?

It shouldn't be career suicide but we all know it is!!

Fair play to her for not being baited. We all know what the question is trying to do. The Tories would love nothing more than for the left to all get themselves cancelled in the run up to the next election!

Of course people should be able to answer the question with their opinion BUT we all know they can't at present!

I don't blame anyone from shying away from answering that question at the moment. I've noticed on Jeremy Vine recently that when anything trans related comes up Jeremy tells the panel they don't have to comment if they don't want to, clearly because the current climate is so nasty!

Hopefully in the near future we will be able to speak freely and calmly discuss our concerns, on both sides of the argument, but that time is not now.

Oh come on. To discuss it openly on MN gets your posts deleted.

AutumnCrow · 18/02/2023 22:59

Anyway, yes I think Rayner has ended up being even more incoherent that Sturgeon over this.

Ohifyouinsist · 18/02/2023 22:58

AutumnCrow · 18/02/2023 22:57

Oh just ignore the noise. It’s the usual sealioning.

You're right, sorry I shouldn't have responded to him

NaoiseNOTnoise · 18/02/2023 22:57

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AutumnCrow · 18/02/2023 22:57

UrsulaPandress · 18/02/2023 22:56

Fucking hell @NaoiseNOTnoise

Oh just ignore the noise. It’s the usual sealioning.

UrsulaPandress · 18/02/2023 22:56

Fucking hell @NaoiseNOTnoise

TheShellBeach · 18/02/2023 22:54

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That's a vile thing to say.