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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rayner on the Isla Bryson case

243 replies

ResisterRex · 18/02/2023 20:46

It's like they don't want to win.

Angela Rayner: ‘I overshare. Keir Starmer undershares’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a243ac9c-a7d0-11ed-999f-64d8c8a46b78?shareToken=bb096ff7b4ffc77b62d8a23af42fefd5

"Is Isla Bryson a woman? “The recent case?” Looking slightly thrown, she starts talking about guidelines, processes, safeguards, circumstances. “So from what I know about the case, I would not have been putting that person in a women-only prison.” But that wasn’t the question, so I ask again.

“Well, that person’s identifying as a woman now. But they’re right at the beginning of a transition — that they believe is right for them, however, and that’s fine. We respect that. That doesn’t mean to say by respecting it you instantly say, OK, well, that person then goes into a vulnerable space.”

Rayner keeps saying Bryson is “at the very start of the process” of becoming a woman, and keeps citing this as a reason why she should not be in a women’s jail. But Bryson began gender reassignment therapy back in 2020, shortly after she was charged. The SNP’s new Gender Recognition Reform Bill, which Labour voted for, would grant a gender recognition certificate (GRC) to any adult who declared they had been living in their acquired gender for just three months. In other words, had the law Rayner’s own party supports been in place when Bryson began her transition, she could by now have been legally female for more than two years. Even under the existing legislation, brought in by Labour in 2004, Bryson is by now eligible to apply for a GRC, although as far as anyone knows she does not have one. The Scottish Prison Service still remanded her to a women’s jail, though, because several years ago it quietly adopted a de facto self-ID policy — the very policy Rayner supports. By the logic of Rayner’s own stated beliefs, Bryson is categorically a woman.

Bryson, 31, claims to have known she was a woman since she was four. Does that mean she was a woman when she raped her victims? Rayner looks puzzled."

Continues at link

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 19/02/2023 07:53

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 07:34

How do you know anyone will be raped? Glad you have a crystal ball.

Because it has happened before.

Because male prisoners have been up front before to female inmates that they requested moving to female prison to have sex with female prisoners.

Because in the US one male impregnated two female prisoners in a female prison.

Because it doesn’t need to be rape to harm female prisoners. There are already documented reports of constant exhibitionism and masturbation in showers in open view of others. And other sexually intimidating actions.

Because over 50% of transitioned males in UK prisons are sex offenders. And that is just the convicted sexual offences. How many criminals have likely abused women and never been reported?

Because the risk of any male sexually abusing a woman is much higher and any female sexually abusing a woman. And since 85%+ of transitioned males still retain their penis, female people are at the same risk of rape from that penis as any other male penis.

It is not that hard.

Nicedayout22 · 19/02/2023 07:52

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 07:34

How do you know anyone will be raped? Glad you have a crystal ball.

No, you're right; I'm sure convicted rapists wouldn't see having a woman literally locked in a room as them as tempting beyond measure,and would have changed personality after being convicted. Absolutely no need for the most basic of safe guarding of not giving a fox a bunk in the hen house.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 19/02/2023 07:49

This reply has been deleted

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[insert ‘not sure if serious’ meme here]

Helleofabore · 19/02/2023 07:44

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 07:13

Hopefully the prison service would move you cells if you are assaulted in some way, that's just part of the risk you take when you break the law, i wont shed a tear over it. Not a single tear for any criminal.

So, just to be clear you are comfortable that any female prisoner is traumatised by the fear that she might be sexually abused or raped before putting her safety first and not ever putting her in that situation in the first place.

Because :

prisoner = bad.

They shouldn’t have been bad to start with.

And the knowledge that it might happen should be used as a deterrent, right?

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 07:34

How do you know anyone will be raped? Glad you have a crystal ball.

ResisterRex · 19/02/2023 07:32

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Being raped is not part of a custodial sentence. It's not a punishment.

Your continued attempts to derail this thread are as tiresome as they are loathsome.

OP posts:
PronounssheRa · 19/02/2023 07:31

Bit of a fan of Lily madigan. Tells us a lot about Raynor.

Rayner on the Isla Bryson case
NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 07:29

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GoTeamRocket · 19/02/2023 07:28

VortexofBloggery · 19/02/2023 02:35

I've been struggling to understand whether she's a liar & traitor, or stupendously thick, on the subject of gender. She does sound like she truly doesn't understand that women don't have a penis ( or that sex matters much), but that's so bonkers, I'm back to liar & traitor. Starmer too. Totally untrustworthy in every way.

I don't think she is thick. She is traitorous. I don't like KS particularly, but she always seems to make these underhand digs about him. The public are sick of infighting amongst politicians, but she can't help herself.

KS knows he can't get rid off her, I think he I hoping she will slip up enough to be forced to quit, I hope this becomes the case.

Re: Trans women in prison. I think these people all hang out in thevl same circles, They have all done the same training and they have been taught, anyhlthing less than total agreement is phobic, or will.lead to them being ostracised or social media pile on.

Politicians and journalists have openly admitted to not wanting to discuss this issue, because they don't want to be attacked on social media. They prioritise their own online brand over women's safety.

ResisterRex · 19/02/2023 07:27

Fluffymule · 18/02/2023 22:50

From the article;

"“Because … because … it’s where … you’ve got to take it as a whole of the circumstances.”

Do these circumstances include the fact that Bryson has a penis? “No, it’s because Isla Bryson has done damage and harm to women.” With? “Yeah, sure, I mean …” She looks cross and flustered. “It doesn’t matter whether it was a penis or some implementation.” I think Bryson’s victims would say her penis played an important part in her crimes. Does the phrase “her penis” even make any sense? “I think … to be honest, I don’t think that particularly matters.”

Angela Rayner is an utter disgrace. I wouldn't vote for her with a gun to my head.

This also signals an intent to rewrite the Sexual Offences Act. Which does not need rewriting at all.

OP posts:
Datun · 19/02/2023 07:20

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 07:13

Hopefully the prison service would move you cells if you are assaulted in some way, that's just part of the risk you take when you break the law, i wont shed a tear over it. Not a single tear for any criminal.

It doesn't strike you as wrong that women prisoners are forced to be incarcerated with violent male sex offenders as part of their jail sentence, but male rapists are provided with women who cant escape, as part of theirs?

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 07:13

OneLongSmorgasbord · 19/02/2023 01:12

You can if your cellmate is a male rapist.

Would you want a loved one of yours locked up in prison with Isla Bryson or similar? And to have an extra punishment of being raped on top of being incarcerated?

I'm sure you'll say none of your family would do anything to be jailed but you don't know that for sure, no one does.

Hopefully the prison service would move you cells if you are assaulted in some way, that's just part of the risk you take when you break the law, i wont shed a tear over it. Not a single tear for any criminal.

Forgotthebins · 19/02/2023 07:06

I thought it was a really interesting suggestion that they have done polling that tells them they can afford to lose women’s votes. If that is true, I hope someone in the Labour Party leaks it.

Datun · 19/02/2023 06:22

The interviewer says she likes her and obviously admires her. So why is Rayner so shit when it comes to the trans issue?

It's really worrying that Labour don't seem to grasp not just the problems with the ideology but also the way it turns an articulate politician into a gibbering twat in a heartbeat.

What do they think is going to happen?

It will be the subject they'll all get asked about.

They are going to have to come up with something better than blind incoherence.

Captiancorrellistuba · 19/02/2023 04:53

HermioneWeasley · 18/02/2023 22:04

She’s so dense light bends around her

Yup.

Full marks for quote of the week !

😂

BellaAmorosa · 19/02/2023 04:40

The article is excellent.

BellaAmorosa · 19/02/2023 04:37

WhereYouLeftIt · 19/02/2023 02:12

Having read that article, I wonder if there's something else going on inside her head. Less cowardice, more a serious lacking.

Her early life is horrendous. About as hard as I have ever heard of.

I have known people who have gone through shit and afterwards, seem to almost sneer at anyone who hasn't. They measure other people against what they themselves have overcome, and are dismissive of other people's struggles because 'I've had it far harder'. They also tend to follow it up with something along the lines of 'and I turned out OK' - but I don't think they did turn out OK. I think what they went through damaged them. I don't know if the grinding hardship just directly damaged their ability to empathise, or if to get through it they had to shut it down deliberately and concentrate on personal survival only. Either way, throwing other people under the bus caused them no qualms. Absolutely none. I don't think they even saw it as throwing people under the bus, they just dismissed it as 'necessary'.

It's hard to tell which camp Rayner falls into, but having read of her early life, I'm not sure her view of women in prison would be anywhere near my view. I suspect her 'I've been through far more' kicks in and she sees them as far lesser beings than herself - 'losers' to her 'winner'. And that being incarcerated with rapist and murdering males she still thinks is - less than she's been through, so they should just suck it upSad. So it's not even that she doesn't care, it's that she's incapable of feeling for anyone who doesn't match her in the Hard Life Stakes. And equally incapable of putting herself in anyone else's shoes, which is why she can't see how anyone can think differently from her.

I will also say that it's just as possible that the people I knew had the seeds of being self-serving bastards all along and the hardships they endured were coincidental; since I've also known other people have tough experiences and come out the other end wanting to protect and prevent it happening to anyone else. I don't see Rayner wanting to protect anyone except herself.

That gives me food for thought, @WhereYouLeftIt

VortexofBloggery · 19/02/2023 02:35

I've been struggling to understand whether she's a liar & traitor, or stupendously thick, on the subject of gender. She does sound like she truly doesn't understand that women don't have a penis ( or that sex matters much), but that's so bonkers, I'm back to liar & traitor. Starmer too. Totally untrustworthy in every way.

WhereYouLeftIt · 19/02/2023 02:12

ditalini · 18/02/2023 21:30

She's a fucking coward. They all are.

I don't believe she credits it for a minute but she's seen what happens to women who don't conform and she doesn't want that to happen to her.

And she's happy to throw vulnerable women under the bus to protect her political capital. Gutless.

Having read that article, I wonder if there's something else going on inside her head. Less cowardice, more a serious lacking.

Her early life is horrendous. About as hard as I have ever heard of.

I have known people who have gone through shit and afterwards, seem to almost sneer at anyone who hasn't. They measure other people against what they themselves have overcome, and are dismissive of other people's struggles because 'I've had it far harder'. They also tend to follow it up with something along the lines of 'and I turned out OK' - but I don't think they did turn out OK. I think what they went through damaged them. I don't know if the grinding hardship just directly damaged their ability to empathise, or if to get through it they had to shut it down deliberately and concentrate on personal survival only. Either way, throwing other people under the bus caused them no qualms. Absolutely none. I don't think they even saw it as throwing people under the bus, they just dismissed it as 'necessary'.

It's hard to tell which camp Rayner falls into, but having read of her early life, I'm not sure her view of women in prison would be anywhere near my view. I suspect her 'I've been through far more' kicks in and she sees them as far lesser beings than herself - 'losers' to her 'winner'. And that being incarcerated with rapist and murdering males she still thinks is - less than she's been through, so they should just suck it upSad. So it's not even that she doesn't care, it's that she's incapable of feeling for anyone who doesn't match her in the Hard Life Stakes. And equally incapable of putting herself in anyone else's shoes, which is why she can't see how anyone can think differently from her.

I will also say that it's just as possible that the people I knew had the seeds of being self-serving bastards all along and the hardships they endured were coincidental; since I've also known other people have tough experiences and come out the other end wanting to protect and prevent it happening to anyone else. I don't see Rayner wanting to protect anyone except herself.

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/02/2023 01:56

But I don’t think any woman deserves additional punishment.

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/02/2023 01:55

Well said Boiled.

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2023 01:31

NaoiseNOTnoise · Yesterday 22:42

Here's an idea, if you don't want to be locked in with rapists and killers, stop committing crimes. Do ypu know how hard women have to fail to actually get a custodial sentence? Just like you have, they have every excuse made for them so often female prisoners are horrible horrible horrible people.

Not just thrown I jail for stealing a bar of chocolate

and what about the completely innocent ones?

Seema Misra who was pregnant with her second child when she was convicted of theft and sent to jail in 2010.

"If I hadn't had been pregnant, I definitely would have killed myself," she said. "It was the worst thing. It was so shameful."

Seema is one of the hundreds of Post Office workers - mainly sub-postmasters - who were accused of theft after using the Post Office Horizon IT system, which is provided by Fujitsu.

Seema was sent to Bronzefield Prison, where she was locked up with "drug addicts and people self-harming".

Or

Tracy Felstead was just 19 when she was sent to Holloway Prison, which once housed the likes of Myra Hindley and Rose West.

She was accused of stealing £11,503.28 - a number that seems to have been engraved into her memory - while working at Camberwell Green Post Office.

While in jail, she saw a girl who had hanged herself.

The after-effects for Tracy have been severe. Because of the conviction, she lost her job and her house. She is having counselling.

Or

Rubbina Shaheen. She ran the Greenfields post office in Shrewsbury and was convicted and jailed in 2010.

"When he [the judge] said I'm going to prison, I was just totally devastated. I didn't know what to say, what to do, honestly."

3 women completely innocent, but you'd have them having the prospect of being raped assaulted or murdered by a man in prison as an added extra on top of their sentence for crimes they didn't commit.

I am disgusted by your opinion.

OneLongSmorgasbord · 19/02/2023 01:12

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 00:46

Can you tell me exactly where I said that? Cant rape or be raped if you are locked in your cell 24 hours a day.

You can if your cellmate is a male rapist.

Would you want a loved one of yours locked up in prison with Isla Bryson or similar? And to have an extra punishment of being raped on top of being incarcerated?

I'm sure you'll say none of your family would do anything to be jailed but you don't know that for sure, no one does.

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 00:46

ProstheticConscience · 19/02/2023 00:09

Are you advocating for rape to be an additional punishment for female prisoners, as well as being incarcerated? Or just posting outrageous drivel to stir people up? 🤔 Oh it is half term isn't it.

Can you tell me exactly where I said that? Cant rape or be raped if you are locked in your cell 24 hours a day.

CountZacular · 19/02/2023 00:39

I’ve asked this before but who are they actually pandering to? Because it certainly isn’t TRAs and their allies.

LOJ has been fixated with demonising KS for the past year for being too centrist and not left enough. TRAs think Labour are actually TERF bigots ( If their shouting of ‘fuck KS’ at a vigil of a murdered child doesn’t show that what will?). The general public are starting to question this. I’ve heard strangers having conversations about Isla Bryson on the bus which I’d never expected before!

Labour are a shoe-in without doing anything and would have to screw up rather spectacularly to not win the next election after the shit of Tories. But despite that they still seem to be trying rather hard to become laughing stocks to the general public and I don’t know what the point is. Who is it for?