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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rayner on the Isla Bryson case

243 replies

ResisterRex · 18/02/2023 20:46

It's like they don't want to win.

Angela Rayner: ‘I overshare. Keir Starmer undershares’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a243ac9c-a7d0-11ed-999f-64d8c8a46b78?shareToken=bb096ff7b4ffc77b62d8a23af42fefd5

"Is Isla Bryson a woman? “The recent case?” Looking slightly thrown, she starts talking about guidelines, processes, safeguards, circumstances. “So from what I know about the case, I would not have been putting that person in a women-only prison.” But that wasn’t the question, so I ask again.

“Well, that person’s identifying as a woman now. But they’re right at the beginning of a transition — that they believe is right for them, however, and that’s fine. We respect that. That doesn’t mean to say by respecting it you instantly say, OK, well, that person then goes into a vulnerable space.”

Rayner keeps saying Bryson is “at the very start of the process” of becoming a woman, and keeps citing this as a reason why she should not be in a women’s jail. But Bryson began gender reassignment therapy back in 2020, shortly after she was charged. The SNP’s new Gender Recognition Reform Bill, which Labour voted for, would grant a gender recognition certificate (GRC) to any adult who declared they had been living in their acquired gender for just three months. In other words, had the law Rayner’s own party supports been in place when Bryson began her transition, she could by now have been legally female for more than two years. Even under the existing legislation, brought in by Labour in 2004, Bryson is by now eligible to apply for a GRC, although as far as anyone knows she does not have one. The Scottish Prison Service still remanded her to a women’s jail, though, because several years ago it quietly adopted a de facto self-ID policy — the very policy Rayner supports. By the logic of Rayner’s own stated beliefs, Bryson is categorically a woman.

Bryson, 31, claims to have known she was a woman since she was four. Does that mean she was a woman when she raped her victims? Rayner looks puzzled."

Continues at link

OP posts:
NotHavingIt · 19/02/2023 12:41

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 19/02/2023 12:10

Of course she's in a position now where it's impossible to perform a graceful U-turn.

She doesnt want the U-turn.

This has been labour policy since they introduced the GRA. Its not policy to appeal to the young - if anything the young labour voters a blindly following the Labour establishment.

The Labour party is trying to keep hold of all of those new, young recruits that came with Corbyn, and there is also quite a powerful gay, old boys network.

NotHavingIt · 19/02/2023 12:39

The tendency/trend to refer to single sex spaces as 'safe spaces' continues. Deliberate obfuscation in my view, as a way to disguise people's own discomfort at the ridiculousness and incoherence of their position.

" Let's try and avoid talking about 'sex' and what it means and implies at all costs"

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 19/02/2023 12:10

Of course she's in a position now where it's impossible to perform a graceful U-turn.

She doesnt want the U-turn.

This has been labour policy since they introduced the GRA. Its not policy to appeal to the young - if anything the young labour voters a blindly following the Labour establishment.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/02/2023 12:06

howmanybicycles · 19/02/2023 08:52

I don't think it works though. It's still nonsense and I'd not trust any politicians talking like this. KS is apparently going to protect "safe' spaces - single.'sex' spaces afterbyouve redefined sex to be meaningless nonsense.

I agree, which is why my original phrasing was "So my party makes a clear commitment to maintain the single sex provisions as single sex, reserved for people born female until society has moved on to the point they are no longer needed."
^^

NotHavingIt · 19/02/2023 11:57

Local resister groups, and others, need to determine to organise in their local constituencies, in the lead up to a possiible general election; in order to hold their local representatives to account. I live in the Liverpool constituency of Labour MP Kim Johnson, who is totally conformist with the TWAW mantra.

She represents a diverse constituency which contains many minority and ethnic groups who she claims to represent above all others. I'm not at all sure that they are as yet fully aware of what she has in mind for women's protected spaces and categories. But they will do!

Focus and organisation is key. This is a rapidly evolving issue and one in which targeted action can have a big effect.

ResisterRex · 19/02/2023 11:50

ResisterRex · 19/02/2023 11:40

Full interview now here:

twitter.com/gbnews/status/1627254067142529024?s=46&t=gdG3SvNvqsxHNexT-g8mJg

OP posts:
RoyalCorgi · 19/02/2023 11:44

Let's remind ourselves that, as well as keeping the green benches "warm" for Lily Madigan, Angela Rayner signed a pledge to expel members with "transphobic" views. In practice, this refers to any member who doesn't swallow the mantra that trans women are women. The group that wrote the pledge refers specifically to two organisations, Woman's Place UK and LGB Alliance:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51465800

This was only three years ago, during the leadership and deputy leadership campaign. It's not surprising that this would eventually come back to bite Rayner on the bum. Of course she's in a position now where it's impossible to perform a graceful U-turn.

ResisterRex · 19/02/2023 11:40

Labour don't care. It's plain as day:

twitter.com/guidofawkes/status/1627265001760194568?s=46&t=gdG3SvNvqsxHNexT-g8mJg

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 11:34

twitterexile · 19/02/2023 11:19

Wonder if she has ever seen The Thick of It?

Possible she took the title personally.

ExiledElsie · 19/02/2023 11:33

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 19/02/2023 11:14

Like watching the office for the first time and wanting to die of embarrassment on behalf of the character

I couldn't make it to the end, was that really less than 4 minutes?

guinnessguzzler · 19/02/2023 11:25

Slothtoes · 19/02/2023 10:28

Oh for goodness sake. Labour won’t get themselves cancelled if they say that sex is real and unchanging. The vast majority of people know that to be true.

Agreed. They will likely get in next year whatever they do so they have a choice to make here. Continue the route they have been, prioritising an anti science and completely illogical ideology that they clearly can't properly defend. Or rip the plaster off and likely win back more support from women than they stand to lose and actually be able to conduct themselves with integrity. Far better to do it now.

twitterexile · 19/02/2023 11:19

Wonder if she has ever seen The Thick of It?

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 19/02/2023 11:14

Like watching the office for the first time and wanting to die of embarrassment on behalf of the character

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 11:04

It's almost entertaining, if you enjoy that kind of thing.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 19/02/2023 11:03

Yes, i guess that shows a certain talent….i guess

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 11:01

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 19/02/2023 10:52

It was a really simple question which she was completely unable to answer 😳

Give her credit, she managed to turn an embarrassing failure into a spectacularly surreal serial fiasco.

GailBlancheViola · 19/02/2023 10:54

Do ypu know how hard women have to fail to actually get a custodial sentence? Just like you have, they have every excuse made for them so often female prisoners are horrible horrible horrible people.

That is complete and utter bollocks women are more likely to get a custodial sentence for a first offence than men.

women are treated disproportionately harsh in comparison to men by the criminal justice system, seen to have deviated from social and gender norms by offending. It could be argued that this is the reason women are more frequently sentenced to short custodial sentences for low risk offences than men - 58% of women sentenced to custody in 2020 received under 6 months, 31% for theft compared to 16% for men (Prison Reform Trust, 2021).

twitterexile · 19/02/2023 10:53

Painful and embarrassing. I cannot believe that people are actually going to vote these idiots in next year. Being politically homeless is really grim.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 19/02/2023 10:52

It was a really simple question which she was completely unable to answer 😳

twitterexile · 19/02/2023 10:52

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 10:42

Holy Jesus fucking Christ. This woman is at risk of being in government.

I have never seen that before. Bloody hell.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 10:42

Captiancorrellistuba · 19/02/2023 10:35

For anyone who hasn't seen the car-crash interview with Andrew Neil, here it is;

Holy Jesus fucking Christ. This woman is at risk of being in government.

Captiancorrellistuba · 19/02/2023 10:35

For anyone who hasn't seen the car-crash interview with Andrew Neil, here it is;

Sorcière · 19/02/2023 10:34

Boomboom22 · 19/02/2023 08:21

Good point about her early years and how that impacted her. In an interview about sure start she said they saved her as without them she would not have known it was important to hug your child and also read to them. Her mother was illiterate. However I don't know what sort of early years she had to not naturally know you should be hugging your kids so this could def explain her seeming inability to empathise with other people except seriously traumatised young trans people.

On a similar theme I have been following this thread re literacy levels (and the link to reasoning skills), and that broadly 15% of adults in the UK have literacy skills of a 9-11 year old. There is a link in the OP that describes the different levels and skills needed to reach them.

Thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4743831-to-ask-what-you-think-your-reading-level-might-be?page=1

Extract from link in the OP:

The OECD defines literacy across six levels. People with Level 1 or below literacy skills are considered to have very poor literacy skills, while Level 3 is considered the minimum literacy skills required for coping with everyday life. The levels are defined as follows:

Below Level 1: Adults can read brief texts on familiar topics and locate a single piece of specific information. Only basic vocabulary knowledge is required and the adult is not required to understand the structure of sentences or paragraphs.

Level 1: Adults can read relatively short digital or print texts to locate a single piece of information that is identical to or synonymous with the information given in the question. Knowledge and skill in recognising basic vocabulary, determining the meaning of sentences, and reading short paragraphs of text is expected.

Level 2: Adults can make matches between the text, either digital or printed, and information. Adults can paraphrase or make low-level inferences.

Level 3: Adults are required to read and navigate dense, lengthy or complex texts.

Level 4: Adults can integrate, interpret or synthesise information from complex or lengthy texts. Adults can identify and understand one or more specific, non-central idea(s) in the text in order to interpret or evaluate subtle evidence-claim or persuasive discourse relationships.

Level 5: Adults can search for, and integrate, information across multiple, dense texts; construct syntheses of similar and contrasting ideas or points of view; or evaluate evidence based arguments. Adults understand subtle, rhetorical cues and can make high-level inferences or use specialised background knowledge.

In the thread there are examples of types of thinking that people can struggle with and that we should not take for granted that because we do it personally, others can. E.g. conditionality. One example given was “if you do not eat dinner you may be hungry in the morning”. This is rubutted by people saying “well I would eat dinner”. It is not hard to see the extension to “if you put a man in a women’s prison women are at harm” to “we are not putting men in women’s prison”. If you subscribe to TWAW that is. Hence Bryson is “the rapist”

There are also examples where playing logical or board games helps literacy and analytical skills. One can consume words but not necessarily understand them or nuance or draw conclusions.

The whole thread is well worth a read.

Slothtoes · 19/02/2023 10:28

Oh for goodness sake. Labour won’t get themselves cancelled if they say that sex is real and unchanging. The vast majority of people know that to be true.

BellaAmorosa · 19/02/2023 10:24

howmanybicycles · 19/02/2023 08:52

I don't think it works though. It's still nonsense and I'd not trust any politicians talking like this. KS is apparently going to protect "safe' spaces - single.'sex' spaces afterbyouve redefined sex to be meaningless nonsense.

I agree, @howmanybicycles.

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