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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rayner on the Isla Bryson case

243 replies

ResisterRex · 18/02/2023 20:46

It's like they don't want to win.

Angela Rayner: ‘I overshare. Keir Starmer undershares’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a243ac9c-a7d0-11ed-999f-64d8c8a46b78?shareToken=bb096ff7b4ffc77b62d8a23af42fefd5

"Is Isla Bryson a woman? “The recent case?” Looking slightly thrown, she starts talking about guidelines, processes, safeguards, circumstances. “So from what I know about the case, I would not have been putting that person in a women-only prison.” But that wasn’t the question, so I ask again.

“Well, that person’s identifying as a woman now. But they’re right at the beginning of a transition — that they believe is right for them, however, and that’s fine. We respect that. That doesn’t mean to say by respecting it you instantly say, OK, well, that person then goes into a vulnerable space.”

Rayner keeps saying Bryson is “at the very start of the process” of becoming a woman, and keeps citing this as a reason why she should not be in a women’s jail. But Bryson began gender reassignment therapy back in 2020, shortly after she was charged. The SNP’s new Gender Recognition Reform Bill, which Labour voted for, would grant a gender recognition certificate (GRC) to any adult who declared they had been living in their acquired gender for just three months. In other words, had the law Rayner’s own party supports been in place when Bryson began her transition, she could by now have been legally female for more than two years. Even under the existing legislation, brought in by Labour in 2004, Bryson is by now eligible to apply for a GRC, although as far as anyone knows she does not have one. The Scottish Prison Service still remanded her to a women’s jail, though, because several years ago it quietly adopted a de facto self-ID policy — the very policy Rayner supports. By the logic of Rayner’s own stated beliefs, Bryson is categorically a woman.

Bryson, 31, claims to have known she was a woman since she was four. Does that mean she was a woman when she raped her victims? Rayner looks puzzled."

Continues at link

OP posts:
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NotHavingIt · 20/02/2023 18:55

SinnerBoy · 20/02/2023 15:10

Yes, I've had a look around the news sites and it appears that he's a TRA zealot, not a trans person.

Sorry!

He might be gay since he's part of the LGBTQ organisation at his university. I guess he's doing his youthful rebellion like many others have done before him; except now he is at university at a time when certain ideas are being actively pushed, rather than being analysed and debated.

I phtographed this poster the other day on a local university campus:

Rayner on the Isla Bryson case
SinnerBoy · 20/02/2023 15:10

Yes, I've had a look around the news sites and it appears that he's a TRA zealot, not a trans person.

Sorry!

SinnerBoy · 20/02/2023 14:45

NotHavingIt · Today 14:14

Oh, my mistake there, I'd read that she has a trans son.

duc748 · 20/02/2023 14:42

Surely Rayner, Nandy and Co don't believe in what they are saying. It's so cowardly and disappointing. They just grimly parrot a script. I'm a lifelong Labour supporter and voter, but I won't support them on this issue. Failing to stand up for the hard-fought rights of women, and dismally letting down our pressurised kids. Shameful.

NotHavingIt · 20/02/2023 14:14

NotHavingIt · 20/02/2023 14:12

Joel Cooper is a natal boy ( not trans identifing as far as I can see), though he is described as a trans activist/ally.

Fluffymule · 20/02/2023 14:14

Captiancorrellistuba · 19/02/2023 10:35

For anyone who hasn't seen the car-crash interview with Andrew Neil, here it is;

Dear lord that was excruciating.

NotHavingIt · 20/02/2023 14:12

NotHavingIt · 20/02/2023 14:06

Do you have any more info on that. I've heard similar, myself.

Yet both she and Ed Balls appear very neutral on the subject whenever you see them on TV or interviewed. I've always liked Yvette Cooper, and Ed Balls.

www.lbc.co.uk/watch-videos/nadhim-zahawi-protest-warwick-tories/

Just found this.

NotHavingIt · 20/02/2023 14:06

SinnerBoy · 20/02/2023 09:42

Yvette Cooper is a trans supporter, her daughter is a transman.

Do you have any more info on that. I've heard similar, myself.

Yet both she and Ed Balls appear very neutral on the subject whenever you see them on TV or interviewed. I've always liked Yvette Cooper, and Ed Balls.

WhereYouLeftIt · 20/02/2023 13:58

SinnerBoy · 20/02/2023 09:42

Yvette Cooper is a trans supporter, her daughter is a transman.

Ah, I wondered if she had a family member.

From The Telegraph

"The shadow home secretary told Times Radio “I just think people get into rabbit holes on this. Why are we all getting ourselves tangled up?”
When told it was “straightforward” to explain what a woman is, she replied: “As you can see I am avoiding going down a rabbit hole, it’s pointless.”

hryllilegur · 20/02/2023 13:55

Keir Starmer needs to properly face up to things.

Firstly that the last time the Labour Party actually seemed relevant and offered any kind of inspiring vision for voters was in the late 90s led by Tony Blair. Even now they’re only looking at positive poll results because the Tories are self combusting. It’s nothing to do with the Labour Party’s brilliant ideas.

The fact is, given the current state of the Tories, labour could instruct all their MPs to communicate only by farting into microphones and they’d still poll better than the Tories.

Secondly the ever more obvious situation where Labour bangs on about social justice and such like. But what they actually deliver is dominance by white men and scandals around anti-semitism. In comparison, the Tories have actually had 3 female prime ministers and one minority ethnic prime minister.

Trying to distract from that by pointing out that they’re Tories and have horrible ideas and opinions doesn’t cut it. It doesn’t matter that the Tories do or think horrible things. It doesn’t even matter that one of those prime ministers was clearly the least successful prime minister in British history (looking at you Liz).

What exactly does Keir have to say to explain why the Tory party membership are more accepting of leadership by women (in particular) than the supposedly progressive Labour Party is? Having a woman as your deputy doesn’t really cut it when the overall record shows that white, middle aged (and older!) men dominate the Labour Party in all the ways that matter.

Just telling us how terrible the Tories are doesn’t make it ok. Or better.

guinnessguzzler · 20/02/2023 13:36

Yep, it comes to something when we're (almost) saying bring back Tony Blair!

MarshaBradyo · 20/02/2023 12:56

I had a period where I didn’t really want hear more from Blair but on a fair few issues I think he’s been right

Datun · 20/02/2023 12:30

And from what I can remember Tony Blair saying, it was stop going down this road. It won't end well. He could see the writing on the wall, and knew that they were digging themselves themselves into a hole. This was years back.

PaterPower · 20/02/2023 12:29

There are a few Tory MPs who have made solidly TWAW statements in the past.

Interestingly my local Tory MP, who I’d include in the category above, has edited (not sure how recently, but it’s def changed) their website to emphasise disability rights where previously it was all about what a great LGBTQ+ ally he was.

Datun · 20/02/2023 12:28

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 20/02/2023 11:58

Labour know 'trans' is a potential issue, because otherwise Starmer would be stating clearly what he intends to do. At the moment hes pissing off TRA as well as women with his lack of clarity.

If he thought it was popular he'd wouldnt be making ambiguous announcements in fields and stumbling over his words when asked about women having a cervix. Hes hoping its going to be sorted out before he's in charge.

It cant be just me who can sense the change in confidence when labour political are asked about men in womens prison?

No, it's not just you.

And no amount of polling can predict the effect of watching politician after politician look like splutteringly incoherent, sexist twats through being asked simple questions relating to women's spaces and biology.

I watched that clip of Angela Rayner being questioned by Andrew Neill and he couldn't hide his contempt for the fact that she was waffling, albeit with conviction, but without any substance, to the point where he actually said out loud she doesn't know the answer. He smelled blood, instantly, because he knew he wouldn't get a straight answer.

This is what interviewers do. It's the highlight of their month.

And they all know it. And they all know it's a piece of piss. A child could do it. A child could reduce an experienced, hardened politician, to a bumbling fool through one or two questions.

Hell, we see on the web chats here, all the time time. They're incapable of answering the questions. And this is with all the bloody time in the world, and all the words in the English language at their electronic fingertips.

The ideology is incoherent, misogynistic, illogical and dangerous.

And any proponent of it will be revealed as representative of exactly that.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 20/02/2023 12:01

Or if they have done, the deputy leader of the party doesn't know about it?

It wouldn't be unusual for the deputy leader to miss memos. Especially if the working relationship between them and the leader isnt great.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 20/02/2023 11:58

Labour know 'trans' is a potential issue, because otherwise Starmer would be stating clearly what he intends to do. At the moment hes pissing off TRA as well as women with his lack of clarity.

If he thought it was popular he'd wouldnt be making ambiguous announcements in fields and stumbling over his words when asked about women having a cervix. Hes hoping its going to be sorted out before he's in charge.

It cant be just me who can sense the change in confidence when labour political are asked about men in womens prison?

Floisme · 20/02/2023 11:57

Sounds like Labour aren't even doing focus groups with this as a question, or any polling, from the Times article. So they will remain wilfully ignorant.

Yes, I thought the ending of that article was startling:

'I can only think Starmer has calculated that he can afford to lose their votes. Has Labour, I ask, at least conducted private polling to find out exactly how many they are risking?
'The suggestion seems to surprise her. “I don’t know.”'

They've not even asked the question?
Or if they have done, the deputy leader of the party doesn't know about it?
How arrogant can you get?

Abhannmor · 20/02/2023 11:34

It's almost impossible to cast the trans issue in left/right terms , although the TRAs try to do this. Framing themselves as leftists , almost as the vanguard of some revolution.

For example, Kenny MacAskill of the Alba Party is quite leftwing. He led the Can't Pay Won't Pay campaign against the Poll Tax and was regarded as a leader of the left wing of SNP. When Sturgeon took over she sacked him from his cabinet position. He is quite vocal about being GC and women's rights.

Then you have many Tories and Liberal Democrats on the TRA side if the argument. I'm going to sound like Millie Tant now - but I don't think many people who claim to be socialists have ever read Marx or understand dialectical materialism.

Of course they could fall back on their five senses. Get out of Westminster. Visit a farm and learn the difference between sex and gender - however you define the latter.

ResisterRex · 20/02/2023 10:51

Sounds like Labour aren't even doing focus groups with this as a question, or any polling, from the Times article. So they will remain wilfully ignorant.

And here's another case:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11771209/Transgender-killer-strangled-cellmate-identifies-baby-says-fears-mens-jail.html

Is the "person identifying as a baby now...<stumble stumble>"? Is that the Labour policy??

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 20/02/2023 10:48

We’ll see but I’d say Sturgeon leaving is pretty real, and the impact on Mordaunt too

So I don’t get the can’t you see reality jibe.

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2023 10:39

Bit like when Sturgeon declared the consutlation on GRR was going to 'educate' people, getting hte whole point of a consultation arse-backwrds.

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2023 10:38

MarshaBradyo · 20/02/2023 10:32

Sigh, not the "this is going to cost Labour the election" stuff again!

What was the polling on it for SNP before NS stood down?

Or polling on antisemitism for Corbyn

Or whatever meant Ed Miliband lost his lead

and Penny Mordaunt didn’t match the polls she thought were solid

These posts re polls seem to ignore that Nicola Sturgeon is now out and many cite transgender issue. I mean that sighing might help her but not much.

I think the trouble was that people did polling to try and present a certain argument, rather than drill down into what people actually genuinely thought.

MarshaBradyo · 20/02/2023 10:32

HPFA · 20/02/2023 10:27

Sigh, not the "this is going to cost Labour the election" stuff again!

As just one example this is a poll where people were asked the question "What most worries you about X party winning the election". The % of people mentioning trans rights was 6%. And it was 4% for the Tories implying that people didn't trust them either.

samf.substack.com/p/is-everyone-fighting-the-wrong-election

Every time I see a poll which asks people to list issues of importance to them it's way down at the bottom - miles behind cost of living etc. You aren't going to change that in just over a year.

For a group of people committed to reality we do seem to have a strange blind spot over this. Could the Conservatives win the next election? Suppose there's an outside chance if by some miracle the economy picks up and NHS waiting lists drop. But that's the only way it's going to happen.

Sigh, not the "this is going to cost Labour the election" stuff again!

What was the polling on it for SNP before NS stood down?

Or polling on antisemitism for Corbyn

Or whatever meant Ed Miliband lost his lead

and Penny Mordaunt didn’t match the polls she thought were solid

These posts re polls seem to ignore that Nicola Sturgeon is now out and many cite transgender issue. I mean that sighing might help her but not much.

Abhannmor · 20/02/2023 10:31

twitterexile · 20/02/2023 09:09

I think it's about placating the hard Left who are wedded to this misogyny. He doesn't mind tackling their anti-semitism but tackling woman hate is clearly a step too far.

I doubt that. Starmer is ' inviting ' members of the Campaign Group of leftwing MPs to leave the party. That's about 40 to 50 MPs so he must be confident he is going to win big and they have nowhere else to go.

Surely support for gender nonsense is much stronger about liberal and 'green minded' voters - and MPs - middle class fauxminists and even some Tories? These are the parts of the electorate Kier Heineken wants to reach and detach from the Conservative party at the next election.

Having said that , Neil Kinnocks Labour was 25 points ahead of the Tories after the Poll Tax Riots. They still managed to blow it. As for Angela , yes Starmer might use her to brandish ' his hint of a tint ' of social democracy credentials. . He may even keep her on if he wins - a sort of mudguard on his left front wheel. A crap John Prescott.

I wouldn't write her off yet but neither would I expect much from her.