Re: Starmer

I know. Which makes it all the more confusing why some posters seem to want to blame KS.

OP, your original point (I think) was that Starmer has lost credibility as a Labour leader who you could vote for given his track record on this issue? I agree. He has allowed terrible harassment of MPs like Rosie Duffield and his bland response to women’s rights has disappointed me.

At the risk of derailing this thread though, I think that the Tories are waiting to use Starmer’s ridiculous pronouncements about who may or may not have a cervix against him. And Starmer should be worried about Posie standing against him: the right wing press will love it.

At this stage everyone assumes Labour will win. I think they could lose if the Tories and their supporters paint a powerful picture of Starmer as a weak, hesitant pen pusher who prevaricates about something as clear as biological sex. Starmer’s team should be talking with him about the need to attract the female vote. Given the recent video by Trump of all people, Starmer should be thinking very seriously about ensuring he appeals to women who are horrified about rapists being housed in the female estate. It could be his Achilles’ heel.

I hope his team realised how this could play and start to take into account the views of the voting public. People have short memories about Covid etc….

It's a good start. Doesn't go far enough in my opinion but I'm pleased to hear this is starting to be addressed.

I care about women who are the collateral damage in all areas of gender ideology. I believe that for proper change we need leaders who are not male supremacists and i believe kier is one. You might not like this view. You might not agree with it. But insulting me is not going to make me see things your way.

I'm pretty sure jgw1's point was that women are locked up with men currently under a Tory government in England.

Implying that having Labour in government would not change an already existing.situation.

As I posted above, the current UK government are already acting (see link).

Scotland is a different legal and penal system, presided over by the self-described progressive SNP.

I think this poster knew this. They're just arguing that because this happens under a tory government, there's no reason not to vote for kier starmer.

Here's yet another one:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4744849-tw-in-cornton-vale-segregated-because-of-her-safety?reply=123976017

jgw1 · Today 12:01

Are women being locked up with men in prison now?

Do you not read the papers? Or the numerous threads here on the subject.

The current government is already acting.

25th January 2023

www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-changes-to-transgender-prisoner-policy-framework

@Floisme Virgil had the coolest Thunderbird and operated all of the equipment, while Scott just got hysterical at his mobile command centre (sat behind a desk). I think there was a spark between Virgil and Lady P too.

Definitely a spark. Yeah Thunderbird 2 was the best - it did real, proper work while Scott swanned around in a big, shiny, flying penis.

@howmanybicycles you do care about women being locked up with men in prison, but not enough to say anything about the person who could change that situation or to direct a campaign at that person to change the situation?

That is a very, very unpleasant thing to say. People's solutions to problems may be different to yours but that does not mean that they don't care. What a nasty thing to say.

@howmanybicycles you aren't concerned about women being locked up with men in prisons. Many on these threads seem to be, but in the wider world it is not high on the list of most people's concerns, perfectly natural to be in the latter group.

Irrelevant to the point I was making.

Is KS the Minister for prisons currently?
Given there is apparently a problem with women being locked up with men in prisons at present, I would have thought it would be best to direct campaigning at the Minister in charge who can actually effect change now, rather than waiting at least another two years to have this serious problem addressed.

KS will push ahead with self ID which seems a good reason to not vote for a party he leads.

Policies fail or thrive in the context of public opinion. The public have sadly been caught in part because of male supremacists like KS. We are still in a place where people need the scales to fall from their eyes. Ideally this will happen ASAP and as a result KS will be banished from politics. This will leave the politically homeless masses with a hope for a better future.

And those people who are women are able to disagree with me in elections because the suffragettes worked very hard to attain sex based rights. I think they'd be horrified at rhe current direction of travel. It is completely irrational to consider that he is fighting for sex based rights if he is also defining sex as something other than biological. The 99.9% argument is absolute spin. He has also been aggressive to women who define a woman as an adult human female. Those two stances are not compatible and if you also factor in his cervix comment then it is clear that the definition of woman for him is identity based and not biological. What do you mean legal based? What legal argument is there for including men in a definition of woman? Do you mean a GRC? That defines some ethereal identity not the biological experience of being a woman. There is a campaign underway to better clarify the concept of sex in the equality act as clearly men should not be considered women under that act or it is nor protecting women's rights. Can you tell me what you think is illogical about the focus group statement? He checked out his thinking about TWAW by asking his daughter and wife what they thought. Hardly due diligence. No. Not Corbyn. Starmer. Glossing over this leader's deficits by highlighting the previous leader's ones is a rather obvious strategy.

Thank you for clarifying.
The Minister responsible for prisons could introduce a policy today that said that women are not to be locked up with men in prisons. Which would seem to me, if one cared deeply about these things as many people on these threads do a good reason for not voting for the party that Minister belonged to.

@Floisme Virgil had the coolest Thunderbird and operated all of the equipment, while Scott just got hysterical at his mobile command centre (sat behind a desk). I think there was a spark between Virgil and Lady P too.

My ward is marginal between LD and Con., currently Con. Labour don't stand a chance her. My MP has said nothing wrt GI, women's rights. I think I could spoil my ballot with a clean conscience.

<thinks>

Phew, good recovery, no-one will notice my derail!

I have to push back a little, and this possibly explains my willingness to try writing to him:

He's a danger to women. He refuses to listen to them and arrogantly assumes that he knows best.

He did a lot of seriously important work with the CPS on domestic violence. He worked very closely with victims of DV and really earned my respect there. In addition, he has also said: "It is my personal mission to tackle violence against women and girls. It is destroying lives and families. This government is failing. Labour would act to protect women."

His 'focus group' to check out his male supremacy thinking was to ask his white, highly privileged wife and white, highly privileged teen daughter whether they agreed with him.

This is completely irrational.

He's destroyed the only viable challenge to the Tory party because of this arrogance.

Corbyn? I honestly think people who think this country would ever elect someone like Corbyn to be PM are in their own echo-chamber fantasyland, parallel to the one that believes TWAW. I come from a family that have been staunch Labour for decades, and not one of them voted for Labour under Corbyn.

He's fucking the country over through his refusal to listen to people's very well thought through concerns.

How do you know he's not listening? He has stated that he knows for 99.9% of women this issue is about biological sex. He has said equality for women must not be compromised. I'm hopeful that his insistence that Labour will not be captured by narrow interests applies to the gender issue as much as anti-semitism. I am hopeful that the mess the SNP has got themselves into will spotlight the political costs.

I'm not ready to judge him for not coming roaring out because he also has to straddle tensions in his party, and he has to get elected. But that doesn't mean he's not listening. Gender issues are one of many desperately pressing issues, none of which can be dealt with unless they are elected.

He said 'it should never be said that only women have a cervix'

It would have been more prudent for him to say, "trans men also have a cervix" given public feeling. But this is an inconvenient fact. If the transman has a GRC, they are legally men, and they have a cervix. Which means, like it or not, legally some men can have a cervix. And KS is a barrister - he is going to be legally accurate. I do not think that quote is conclusive evidence of real bias. I suspect, if pushed on this, and asked if transmen without a GRC were men, he'd probably reply something along the lines of 'legally, No'. Because that would be accurate too.

and feels that he, a man, has the right to tell women what they should and shouldn't say.

I think the phrase 'it should never be said...' was general and based on legal accuracy. It certainly wasn't specifically directed at women.

He needs out of politics now. He's not fit to lead a scout group let alone a governing party.

I think millions will disagree with you at the next election.

Yes. And the Tory leadership are saying the things we'd need to hear to belive it possible that will change. KS isn't. But you're again missing the point I'm making. You do you with your vote. The try and have some respect for others doing them. You don't have to read my thoughts and agree with them but busy could try and stop badgering to apparently argue with a point I'm not making.

Are women being locked up with men in prison now?

OMG I adored Virgil. All my friends liked Scott but Virgil had such big sad eyes, and he painted and played the piano....

No be ause this is the tip of the iceberg. Its not just about now. It about the future. Do you want a future where women's rights are reinstated or not? Ultimately though. You do what you want. I was explaining why I loathe KS not campaigning for votes for other parties.

Oh good another example of the left deplatforming those who disagree with them.

There was me thinking the point of a discussion board was to have a discussion.