Page 3 | Any lawyers seen the video of RMW "explaining" GC beliefs?

MuffinWoman · 2023-02-14T09:15:30+00:00

I don't think I can say what was said here due to copyright but in my opinion it is an intensely biased explanation of GC beliefs. Why get someone so opposed to GC beliefs to explain what they are in such a partisan way? In essence, it presents GC as an extreme belief that is challenging for employers to accommodate (it says that if an employer finds out they have an employee with GC beliefs the first thing they should do is not panic!!!) and says that people with GC beliefs think trans people are "wrong" and should not be supported. It is on one of the leading legal subscription websites - not sure if I can say which but it's not Lexis!

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 13:31

@OldCrone thanks the article is interesting.

It was definitely UK, my memory is predominantly of a TV programme following a transwoman through their sex change en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Change_of_Sex

GIDS would only have been established when there was sufficient demand so I assume they were treated by NHS but there was no specialist unit.

Datun · 15/02/2023 13:27

Diamondsmile

do you subscribe to the true trans school of thought?

That there are definitely some people who are truly transgender?

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 13:25

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 13:21

@howmanybicycles happy to be corrected but dysphoria is a state of worry or general unhappiness. I agree they are dysphoric but are they gender dysphoric or do they have another type of dysphoria or just generally unhappy and need to put a label on it?

For example it appears if a teenager says I’m unhappy with my body the first response now is oh you must be transgender rather than it’s completely normal to think WTF is happening to me why have I got hair growing everywhere and breasts etc. no one ask why are you unhappy? The same is true when a teenager is trying to work out their sexuality they may not be able to articulate why they are unhappy so have dysphoria but is it gender dysphoria?

It’s the lack of questioning from schools, NHS GIDS etc. to get to the underlying cause of the dysphoria that has led to this. Hannah Barnes’ book and the Times articles show there was a change in approach by GIDS and this coupled with Stonewalls need to keep the money rolling in and the Longterm plan (my memory fails me Denton’s or Thompson’sI think) the growth of social media and the Be Kind messaging etc. that led us to where we are.

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I agree. Except for this bit

. I agree they are dysphoric but are they gender dysphoric or do they have another type of dysphoria or just generally unhappy and need to put a label on it?

I think the way all dysphoria works is that first we feel the we try and figure out why. I don't believe there's real and unreal gender dysphoria. How we react as a society does influence how emotions persist though and we are currently making things worse I order to service entitled men.

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 13:21

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 12:42

What distinction are you drawing? Dysphoria is a feeling. If people say they're dysphoric, surely they're dysphoric. Are you suggesting that some people say they feel dysphoric but are lieing? ASD per se is not a cause. Its a vulnerability. Culture allows for negative feelings to be expressed in specific ways so whilst a person may feel unhappy, like they don't fit in, turning this into being trans takes a specific cultural way of meaning making.

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@howmanybicycles happy to be corrected but dysphoria is a state of worry or general unhappiness. I agree they are dysphoric but are they gender dysphoric or do they have another type of dysphoria or just generally unhappy and need to put a label on it?

For example it appears if a teenager says I’m unhappy with my body the first response now is oh you must be transgender rather than it’s completely normal to think WTF is happening to me why have I got hair growing everywhere and breasts etc. no one ask why are you unhappy? The same is true when a teenager is trying to work out their sexuality they may not be able to articulate why they are unhappy so have dysphoria but is it gender dysphoria?

It’s the lack of questioning from schools, NHS GIDS etc. to get to the underlying cause of the dysphoria that has led to this. Hannah Barnes’ book and the Times articles show there was a change in approach by GIDS and this coupled with Stonewalls need to keep the money rolling in and the Longterm plan (my memory fails me Denton’s or Thompson’sI think) the growth of social media and the Be Kind messaging etc. that led us to where we are.

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 13:14

OldCrone · 15/02/2023 13:06

You might find this article about the different types of gender dysphoria interesting.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria

Do you have any more information about this?

I wasn't aware that children of any age were being diagnosed with this condition in the 70s and 80s. I don't think GIDS existed until 1989. Or were you talking about somewhere outside the UK?

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That article is making a whole heap of assumptions which can't be proven. We have no idea what people felt before their behaviour alerted us to an issue. It doesnt say much about the societal conditions which allow these iasues to thrive (though does mention social contagion). Why do you think it's relevant?

OldCrone · 15/02/2023 13:06

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:55

@Datun we agree on quite a lot and you are not wrong for the vast majority of people under the trans umbrella.

Maybe it’s my age but I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria who in adulthood (30, 40 +) had a sex change as it was called then. I believe this very small cohort still exist.

Don’t underestimate how much of this is underpinned by paraphillias.

Voyeurism used to be magazines and nurses accommodation now it’s porn, upskirting, hidden cameras, sex tapes etc.
Exhibitionism used to be flashers in raincoats now it’s dick pics, sex tapes etc.
AGP etc.

Whilst you “see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.” I agree with you but see slightly more than this.

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You might find this article about the different types of gender dysphoria interesting.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria

Do you have any more information about this?

I wasn't aware that children of any age were being diagnosed with this condition in the 70s and 80s. I don't think GIDS existed until 1989. Or were you talking about somewhere outside the UK?

Datun · 15/02/2023 13:03

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:55

@Datun we agree on quite a lot and you are not wrong for the vast majority of people under the trans umbrella.

Maybe it’s my age but I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria who in adulthood (30, 40 +) had a sex change as it was called then. I believe this very small cohort still exist.

Don’t underestimate how much of this is underpinned by paraphillias.

Voyeurism used to be magazines and nurses accommodation now it’s porn, upskirting, hidden cameras, sex tapes etc.
Exhibitionism used to be flashers in raincoats now it’s dick pics, sex tapes etc.
AGP etc.

Whilst you “see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.” I agree with you but see slightly more than this.

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Ok, diamond, but what is it? What do you think causes this gender dysphoria in preschool children that has nothing to do with the things I mentioned?

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:55

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:25

Yes, I'd like to know what this esoteric reason is behind gender dysphoria, that no one seems to be able to grasp.

AGP aside, I see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.

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@Datun we agree on quite a lot and you are not wrong for the vast majority of people under the trans umbrella.

Maybe it’s my age but I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria who in adulthood (30, 40 +) had a sex change as it was called then. I believe this very small cohort still exist.

Don’t underestimate how much of this is underpinned by paraphillias.

Voyeurism used to be magazines and nurses accommodation now it’s porn, upskirting, hidden cameras, sex tapes etc.
Exhibitionism used to be flashers in raincoats now it’s dick pics, sex tapes etc.
AGP etc.

Whilst you “see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.” I agree with you but see slightly more than this.

CharlieParley · 15/02/2023 12:44

TheBiologyStupid · 15/02/2023 12:24

I'd have eyerolled to the best of my abilities. Something Angela Merkel was famous for by the way.

Indeed, Charlie!

That is my favourite comedy skit of all time

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:43

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:31

@Datun my last post overlapped with yours at 12:20 I absolutely agree with you the examples you quote are upsetting.

Yes, and I agree that there are many reasons for identifying as transgender. Some of them entirely unrelated to others.

What does a young girl who wants a double mastectomy because she wants to escape womanhood, have in common with a middle-aged man who gets a sexual kick out of wearing women's clothing.

Not much, but they are both based on sexism.

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 12:42

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:24

@Datun this is a genuine question, as we agree homophobia is one cause of rapid onset gender dysphoria. Do you think homophobia actually causing rapid onset gender dysphoria or is it causing teens to display many of the behaviours of someone with gender dysphoria leading to misdiagnosis of rapid onset gender dysphoria resulting in incorrect treatment?

There are other causes of rapid onset gender dysphoria such as ASD, ADHD, trauma, social media etc. which also present with behaviours of rapid onset gender dysphoria and again where incorrect treatment may be being given?

What distinction are you drawing? Dysphoria is a feeling. If people say they're dysphoric, surely they're dysphoric. Are you suggesting that some people say they feel dysphoric but are lieing? ASD per se is not a cause. Its a vulnerability. Culture allows for negative feelings to be expressed in specific ways so whilst a person may feel unhappy, like they don't fit in, turning this into being trans takes a specific cultural way of meaning making.

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:40

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:24

@Datun this is a genuine question, as we agree homophobia is one cause of rapid onset gender dysphoria. Do you think homophobia actually causing rapid onset gender dysphoria or is it causing teens to display many of the behaviours of someone with gender dysphoria leading to misdiagnosis of rapid onset gender dysphoria resulting in incorrect treatment?

There are other causes of rapid onset gender dysphoria such as ASD, ADHD, trauma, social media etc. which also present with behaviours of rapid onset gender dysphoria and again where incorrect treatment may be being given?

Yes, there are lots of reasons for rapid onset gender dysphoria, homophobia being one. We know that homophobia is on the increase and that butch girls are often told they must be boys.

Gender ideology relies on adhering to stereotypes. Butch girls are not stereotypically feminine, therefore they must be boys. Effeminate boys are not stereotypically masculine, therefore they must be girls.

Up to and including the entire erasure of sexual orientation being based on sex, and replaced with the idea but it has to be based on one's own subjective view of what constitutes masculinity or femininity.

Hence men fondly thinking that donning a dress means that lesbians should fancy them. And if they don't, well then the male socialisation will kick in, or more likely kick off, and the women will just have to 'cope.'

So much for femininity, eh.

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:31

@Datun my last post overlapped with yours at 12:20 I absolutely agree with you the examples you quote are upsetting.

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:25

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 12:19

Ah I see! Diamond seemed to think otherwise!

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Yes, I'd like to know what this esoteric reason is behind gender dysphoria, that no one seems to be able to grasp.

AGP aside, I see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.

TheBiologyStupid · 15/02/2023 12:24

I'd have eyerolled to the best of my abilities. Something Angela Merkel was famous for by the way.

Indeed, Charlie!

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:24

@Datun this is a genuine question, as we agree homophobia is one cause of rapid onset gender dysphoria. Do you think homophobia actually causing rapid onset gender dysphoria or is it causing teens to display many of the behaviours of someone with gender dysphoria leading to misdiagnosis of rapid onset gender dysphoria resulting in incorrect treatment?

There are other causes of rapid onset gender dysphoria such as ASD, ADHD, trauma, social media etc. which also present with behaviours of rapid onset gender dysphoria and again where incorrect treatment may be being given?

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 12:22

CharlieParley · 15/02/2023 12:14

I am bloody glad they didn't sit there with straight faces while absolute nonsense was argued in front of them. I obviously have a different threshold for what constitutes inappropriate reactions - when men who identify with the stereotype of women smirk while female survivors speak of their trauma, when they shake their heads or laugh or scoff when frontline workers explain how that trauma means that males cannot be included in the female-only therapeutic environment without harming female survivors. That's my threshold.

Rolling your eyes at men pontificating, demonstrating their extreme ignorance on an issue of extreme importance to women is not. I'd have eyerolled to the best of my abilities. Something Angela Merkel was famous for by the way, and she ran a whole country for a decade and a half.

Totally agreem. Robin made of fool of themselves by talking about something of which they had no knowledge (why not get experts in???) and then using that falsehood to justify male supremacy. Then Robin complains that people don't take Robin seriously. It's pathetic and manipulative. Robin has no respect for women but demands respect whatever nonsense Ro in spouts.

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:20

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 10:30

@Datun @howmanybicycles bottom line, no one knows what causes gender dysphoria in pre-school age children and I understand studies over a long period (50 years) have shown this can for many resolve itself with the onset of puberty. I personally don’t believe pre-school age children are homophobic but accept you and others disagree.

Those studying the very recent phenomenon of rapid onset gender dysphoria at or around puberty with no previous signs of gender dysphoria have suggested their gender dysphoria may of a different variety with potentially different causes. (Social contagion is an important factor in other conditions starting in adolescence, and would therefore have to be investigated as a possible mechanism to developing the condition.) I agree with you that homophobia may be a contributing factor for rapid onset gender dysphoria.

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Give that gender dysphoria isnt verifiable, other than talking to the person concerned, you can only go on what the person says, and their circumstances.

Clinicians at the Tavistock absolutely thought that homophobia played a huge part. And were quoted as saying there will be no gay kids left.

The children themselves may not have been homophobic, but their parents are. Or sexist.

If you've ever listened to susie greens TEDTalk, the fact that her male child liked to play with dolls was a massive problem for her and her husband.

likewise jazz Jennings. Something was deemed wrong with jazz, because, as a male child, they wanted to wear a tutu.

There are numerous narratives of a children whose parents claim is the opposite sex, where their explanation is completely reliant on gender stereotyping.

Effeminate boys and butch girls are deemed the opposite sex. Many of them will grow up to gay.

Stephanie Davis Arai of transgender trend, who receives thousands upon thousands of emails from concerned parents has said she has yet to see a child identify as the opposite sex who wasn't either gay, autistic, or had suffered some kind of trauma.

Gender dysphoria is a symptom.

What do you think it is?

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 12:19

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:10

I don't expect you to answer that because I was asking diamond. Sorry, I know I was quoting your comment, but I was agreeing with you.

homophobia absolutely causes gender dysphoria.

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Ah I see! Diamond seemed to think otherwise!

CharlieParley · 15/02/2023 12:14

I am bloody glad they didn't sit there with straight faces while absolute nonsense was argued in front of them. I obviously have a different threshold for what constitutes inappropriate reactions - when men who identify with the stereotype of women smirk while female survivors speak of their trauma, when they shake their heads or laugh or scoff when frontline workers explain how that trauma means that males cannot be included in the female-only therapeutic environment without harming female survivors. That's my threshold.

Rolling your eyes at men pontificating, demonstrating their extreme ignorance on an issue of extreme importance to women is not. I'd have eyerolled to the best of my abilities. Something Angela Merkel was famous for by the way, and she ran a whole country for a decade and a half.

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:10

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 10:15

Why do you expect me to answer that? I don't know exactly but the narratives which society has about gender are clearly indicated. My point was about the fact that you suggested that homophones does not cause gender dysphoria. Of course it can.

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I don't expect you to answer that because I was asking diamond. Sorry, I know I was quoting your comment, but I was agreeing with you.

homophobia absolutely causes gender dysphoria.

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:08

OldCrone · 15/02/2023 11:45

My point was that once a clip like that exists it can be manipulated and twisted to suit a specific agenda.

You could read what Helen Joyce has written about what happened and make your own mind up.

www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-36/

Do you really think you're going to get the full picture if you only listen to what TRAs say?

@OldCrone I did read Helen’ explanation at the time and understood what happened. I stand by my view that how ever innocent, how ever involuntary the laughter was the clip makes them look unprofessional.

The reality is the clip does not contain the explanation which is why it can be used to incorrectly influence peoples perceptions. Not everyone is as informed about the debate as posters on this forum and would take it at face value.

Before insulting me by saying I only listen to what TRAs say, may I respectfully suggest you read my posts on here and will see that I am GC but accept there are people with gender dysphoria and recognise the issue is predominantly men with paraphillia’s such as AGP. I believe children should not be given puberty blockers or surgery.

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 11:50

OldCrone · 15/02/2023 11:39

Who looks at that clip and wavers away from the GC side of the debate because of their behaviour then?! No one, but imagine if that clip had been shown when introducing Sarah at the start of the debate with Robin how would neutrals and those new to the subject view Sarah?

Who is Sarah who you are referring to here? It was Maya Forstater and Helen Joyce who were sitting behind Robin.

@OldCrone you are absolutely right it was Maya and Helen not Sarah Phillimore. Sorry.

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 11:47

BenCoopersSupportWren · 15/02/2023 11:35

As the responses have shown GC people do have different interpretations of gender dysphoria proving my point.

Then perhaps TRAs and AGPs should stop clouding the issue by claiming "but muh gender dysphoria!" in every situation in which they want to get their own way.

I believe GD exists. I don't believe falsely promising people, especially children, that they can change sex or performing surgery to turn them into a pale facsimile of the opposite sex is the appropriate treatment for it. If indulging their delusion is appropriate, why are we not offering bariatric surgery to people with anorexia? Why do we not encourage people with schizophrenic auditory hallucinations that the voices are real and they should do as they say?

@BenCoopersSupportWren agreed.

OldCrone · 15/02/2023 11:45

My point was that once a clip like that exists it can be manipulated and twisted to suit a specific agenda.

You could read what Helen Joyce has written about what happened and make your own mind up.

www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-36/

Do you really think you're going to get the full picture if you only listen to what TRAs say?