Any lawyers seen the video of RMW "explaining" GC beliefs?

I'm probably belabouring the point here, but what would cause a baby to have a predisposition to hate their own body?

@OldCrone Fair point I should have said seeing as they can’t agree rather than can’t definitively say.

Have to say I assumed some people with BIIL may have felt like that from birth.

Again my knowledge is limited but I thought a lot of treatments are designed to manage a condition (any condition not specifically GD) rather than curing it.

@Datum As far as I know, there is no evidence of it being inherent.
Also, I've seen so many doctors talk absolute bollocks about this issue that hard evidence is the least that is required.
I agree about evidence but the quote does imply some scientist or clinicians do believe it is inherent.

Do you mean a baby is born with gender dysphoria?
A pre- disposition (hope that is the right word) so trauma may bring out the dysphoria.

Also, I've seen so many doctors talk absolute bollocks about this issue that hard evidence is the least that is required.

As far as I know, there is no evidence of it being inherent.

Do you mean a baby is born with gender dysphoria?

Given that scientists who are far more qualified than me can’t definitively say one way or the other

I thought that paragraph was saying that there is disagreement between specialists about whether or not gender incongruence is inherent and immutable, with some saying that it is and others that it is not. Not that they're all saying 'I don't know', which is how you seem to be interpreting it.

If it is inherent and immutable, what does that mean for those people? Would it mean that they are destined from birth to feel that their bodies are wrong and need to be modified to resemble that of the opposite sex, and there is no treatment for that condition other than to modify their bodies accordingly? If so, wouldn't that also mean that those with the similar condition of BIID are destined from from birth to feel that their bodies are wrong and they will have to have some of their limbs amputated, and that there is no alternative treatment for that condition?

@Datun thank you.

In the Interim Cass Review Dr Cass states “1.7. At primary, secondary and specialist level, there is a lack of agreement, and in many instances a lack of open discussion, about the extent to which gender incongruence in childhood and adolescence can be an inherent and immutable phenomenon for which transition is the best option for the individual, or a more fluid and temporal response to a range of developmental, social, and psychological factors. Professionals’ experience and position on this spectrum may determine their clinical approach.“

So you are saying GD can never be an inherent or immutable phenomenon it is always a response to external factors.

Given that scientists who are far more qualified than me can’t definitively say one way or the other I will stick with my view it is inherent in some people. Rapid onset gender dysphoria in teenagers is more likely to be a response to external factors.

Thank you to youand @CharlieParley for taking the time to explain.

Diamondsmile

if you want to quote someone you can use the quote function, if it's their entire post. Or if you just want to quote a bit, put an asterisk either side of the bit you copy and paste, and it will put it in bold.

@CharlieParley
Actually, I forgot a third statement:

• only those people who identify as trans who actually medically transition are trans

(This was at the heart of a massive years-long fallout taking part over between young female American YouTubers split into two camps

• those who identify as men, who are early-onset transsexuals, i.e. lesbians with gender dysphoria who transition medically and

The fight was eventually won by the latter camp a wee while ago.)
😂

It's because you seemed to think there was a reason for gender dysphoria, other than the ones I listed. The biggest one being homophobia. But gender stereotyping, trauma, etc, there are others.

As Charlie points out, very early gender dysphoria would be the result of an adverse childhood experience. Which to a layman like me would come under the category of trauma.

You seemed to imply that there could be another reason for gender dysphoria, that was different to these things?

Some people do genuinely believe that identifying as transgender or having gender dysphoria is an innate condition like being gay, that is not the result of a reaction to behaviour.

@CharlieParley
"True trans" can mean two things

• only homosexual transsexuals are trans, non-homosexual transsexuals are just fetishists (this is an incorrect claim in as much as if the former are transsexuals then so are the latter, because the term merely describes someone who medically transitions in an attempt to rid their body of the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of their own sex and who seeks ways to emulate those of the opposite sex. Which is true for both groups. The term does not describe why exactly an individual seeks to transition.)

• only those people who identify as trans who also have gender dysphoria are trans. (Which was once a statement held to be obvious and uncontroversial as it was widely believed, but with the ascent of gender identity ideology it no longer is considered true for many if not all trans rights activists.)

Thank you.

Actually, I forgot a third statement:

• only those people who identify as trans who actually medically transition are trans

(This was at the heart of a massive years-long fallout taking part over between young female American YouTubers split into two camps

• those who identify as men, who are early-onset transsexuals, i.e. lesbians with gender dysphoria who transition medically and

• those who identify as non-binary, who may or may not be lesbians, who may or may not have GD and who don't believe a person has to transition to be trans

The fight was eventually won by the latter camp a wee while ago.)

Still not the person asked, but I'llanswer anyway.

"True trans" can mean two things

• only homosexual transsexuals are trans, non-homosexual transsexuals are just fetishists

(this is an incorrect claim in as much as if the former are transsexuals then so are the latter, because the term merely describes someone who medically transitions in an attempt to rid their body of the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of their own sex and who seeks ways to emulate those of the opposite sex. Which is true for both groups. The term does not describe why exactly an individual seeks to transition.)

• only those people who identify as trans who also have gender dysphoria are trans

(Which was once a statement held to be obvious and uncontroversial as it was widely believed, but with the ascent of gender identity ideology it no longer is considered true for many if not all trans rights activists.)

Many people also believe both of those things.

@Datun help me out as I really am trying to understand what you mean by true trans and gender dysphoria not being a stand alone condition.

Thanks for your posts, Charlie. You always bring the science and the studies.

I don't believe in true trans either. I don't think there's any such thing as transgender in the way that people think of it.

I was just wondering if diamond did, because they still seem to hang onto the idea that gender dysphoria is a standalone condition for some reason, which I couldn't get to the bottom of.

@howmanybicycles Honestly 20+ years ago someone transitioned at work and I had no issue with them using the women’s toilets. At no point did I ever expect TW in women’s prisons.

I have over the years used mens toilets on a few occasions. I recently had, what to me was, a very funny incident at the theatre where I arrived late needed the loo and was directed to the mens toilets repurposed as gender neutral. They were empty so all fine. After the show I used them again walking past 2 men using the urinals. When I came out of the cubical there were two big men using the sinks to wash their hands and they gave each other a look over my head. 😭

To answer your question my views have changed and we need a hardline that single sex spaces are exactly that and no biological males should be able to use them. However, where possible additional unisex facilities should also be available these are in addition not instead of.

You cannot bring a male of any chosen feelings or identity into a female only space without rendering it mixed sex for all the females. This actively excludes some females.

There need to be a mix of spaces, some of which are mixed sex 'womens' ones and some of which are female only, because otherwise we're including men so that they have a better choice of facility at the expense of excluding women from any access or facility at all. Which is obviously not inclusion, and not appropriate or fair to try and improve the lot of one group of society by wrecking equality and access for another.

Do you think a tw should ever be in women's spaces? Is there any trans type which you think makes this ok?

@OldCrone sorry but it’s vague memories and whilst the TV programme came up with a quick google I can’t recall more details.

That programme is about an adult transwoman, not a pre-school child being diagnosed with gender dysphoria (or gender identity disorder as it was known until recently).

@Datun not quite sure what you mean by true trans school of thought.

I do not believe you can change sex. For most of my life gender and sex were the same thing and I certainly used them interchangeably. I also believe that your sex should not determine what toys you play with, what job you can do (with limited exceptions), what clothes you wear etc. it’s why I find non-binary difficult as it seems to me to be based on a belief in defined stereotypical sex based roles which seems so retrograde.

In an earlier post I mentioned Body Identity Integrity Disorder (BIIL) where a persons mental body image doesn’t match their physical body. People with BIIL desire the amputation of one or more healthy limbs or desire a paralysis.

I see gender dysphoria in a similar way and so no I don’t see them as truly transgender but accept they truly believe they are transgender from a very young age. As a result of their belief they may suffer discrimination in applying for jobs, receive services etc. I don’t agree with changing birth certificates but I believe there should be a way to provide legal protections that do not impinge on women’s and girls rights.

I remember reading it when it was first published in 2017, and as someone quite new to all this I thought it was interesting. I haven't read the whole thing again recently, but perhaps I should have done before posting the link. A lot of things have changed in the last few years.

I did read the first paragraph again before posting, though, just to check I had the right article. I still think they're right that a child like Jazz Jennings identifying as trans has little in common with older heterosexual male transitioners, and that ROGD adolescent girls are different again. Do you disagree with that?

I note that in the intro, 4th Wave Now ( a gender critical site) say "We recognize that regular readers and members of 4thWaveNow will not agree with all of what Bailey and Blanchard have to say". They still decided to publish it though, so presumably thought it had some value. I'll read it again when I get time.

You're not asking me but I don't believe that. Because what that would mean is that there really are people born in the wrong body and as sexed brains aren't a thing and as an atheist I don't believe in souls, let alone sexed ones, there's no way for that to happen in my view.

I'm not even convinced that transition for those who persist and believe they'll function better or at all only after transitioning is necessarily the best solution, given the very many health issues they experience.

Then Robin complains that people don't take Robin seriously.

How can someone given to spouting rubbish constantly expect to be taken seriously?

On the subject of gender dysphoria, an anecdote.

When I was young I read Jan Moris's account of having gender reassignment surgery, and 14-year-old me was very sympathetic, and thought nothing of the consequences.

I thought JM was genuinely gender dysphoric, until I read very recently, Jan's daughter's account of how when there was an important visitor, Jan would get Jan's poor wife to do the clearing up, saying that was woman's work.

Now I think that even if someone says they have gender dysphoria, we should deal with them in the same way as we would someone who says they need an amputation when they don't, or have anorexia.

The very first patients to medically transition were AGPs.

Those we think of as the stereotypical transsexuals, documented from the 60s onwards, who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria in early childhood were almost always boys, girls were slightly older. The causes are evident from the papers - a disruption in early childhood development in the crucial phases of personality development.

Stage 2, age 1.5 to 3 is called autonomy vs doubt or shame
Stage 3 age 3 to 5 is called initiative vs guilt

These names hint at what happens when these stages are not resolved successfully.

Children discover their own will and seek to assert it. Preferences develop. Adverse childhood experiences disrupt this normal process in some children leading to personality disorders and/or other mental health issues. And for a tiny number (6 in 100,000), the result is gender dysphoria.

ACEs include abuse, neglect, trauma, sexual exploitation, violence, bereavement etc

Puberty is what resolves the mind and body conflict in those who go on to desist. Those who go through puberty and persist almost always transition early and are therefore not only known as homosexual transsexuals but also early-onset transitioners.

If you look at the autobiographies of transsexuals, who fall into that group, they detail in their own words what the ACEs are. In very many cases more than one ACE, but one of the most frequent is being punished (abused) for gender-non-conformity by parents or caregivers who equate being GNC with being gay or lesbian and who believe they can stop their child growing up to be homosexual by forcing them to conform to sex stereotypes.

(In actual fact, the parents were often not wrong to think that their children were going to be homosexual, they were just wrong in thinking that they could stop it from happening. Hence being diagnosed with gender dysphoria in early childhood is a much more reliable predictor of homosexuality than transsexualism.)

So for this cohort, puberty blockers are particularly harmful, because they prevent the very process that would help the majority of these children to reconcile mind and body. The Dutch arrogance here is staggering - there is no way to accurately predict before puberty who will desist. This is why watchful waiting was the approach decided on originally. That prevented the most iatrogenic harm, avoiding the medical transitioning of children who would desist. But because those Dutch clinicians treating the children did not understand that it was puberty itself that was the resolution mechanism, they developed their Dutch protocol, believing that pausing puberty would allow an unknown other resolution mechanism to happen. (This is why studies show 100% or near 100% of children put on blockers progress to cross-sex hormones.)

Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria is a whole different kettle of fish, and it is here where social contagion must be looked at as an important factor. I am not convinced that this cohort experiences the same condition as early-onset transitioners (we obviously know that late-onset transitioners aka non-homosexual transitioners aka AGPs are completely separate from these two cohorts).