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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Handmaid, Handmaiden.

283 replies

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 18:38

Can someone explain why it's been deemed appropriate to call women who appear to be defending men or considering men in any capacity, handmaids?

Does it mean something else that I'm not aware of? My understanding is it comes from the Margaret Atwood novels, referring to women who are forced into ritualistic rape, pregnancy and childbirth.

How exactly does it link to a woman who in one's opinion, chooses to serve the patriarchy. Is it a term feminists should ever use? There is a strong connotation of victim blaming if you are choosing to refer to another woman as a willing handmaid. How is it justifiable?

I'm not asking for examples of when you would consider someone fitting the definition of "handmaiden". I've seen this term thrown around on a couple of threads recently and I'm concerned that it's become a term used largely by women, to insult other women, often in the context of feminist discussions, and I find it interesting that given this very particular context, it's deemed acceptable to use? Again, given the highly misogynistic connotation feeding into the "willing female victim" narrative that already plagues patriarchal rhetoric.

OP posts:
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Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:42

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:41

Or more simply. They are mugs.

Four pages in and the debate is over, we all now agree it is an insult said to other women.

WildIris · 10/02/2023 19:41

OP, if you want to have a discussion about the terms women use about other women, then do exactly that - ask questions, agree with some points, disagree with others, provide examples, suggestions, etc.

I think it’s a worthwhile discussion.

But you are being quite aggressive and goady.

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:41

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:39

See, it’s not said with understanding and pity….it’s used as an insult to call other women stupid bootlickers of misogynists.

Or more simply. They are mugs.

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 19:41

Well it's both sexist and unreasonable to assume women cannot be stupid. They certainly can be.

The bootlicking, that's what you said! Own it

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:41

LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 19:38

@Onnabugeisha, I have thanks.

You are wrong about the Aunts 🤷‍♀️
So perhaps you’re not remembering what you read then.
They’re not how Netflix showed them….

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:39

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 19:38

Well, useful idiot for sexist men is simply too long

See, it’s not said with understanding and pity….it’s used as an insult to call other women stupid bootlickers of misogynists.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:39

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:36

So, can the word “TERF” be used too then?

Quite!

OP posts:
LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 19:38

@Onnabugeisha, I have thanks.

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:38

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:36

So, can the word “TERF” be used too then?

It wasn’t the feminists who called for words to be banned, it was transactivists. Feminists said, well if we can’t accurately describe reality, then you don’t get to disparage us with slurs.

Astralitzia · 10/02/2023 19:38

It's like any insult - a lazy way to shut down, dismiss, or invalidate those you don't agree with.

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:38

LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 19:36

The equivalent to a handmaiden in Attwood's world is an Aunt, someone who upholds the patriarchy for their own benefit (ie, not being sent to the colonies/be a servant). Handmaids don't have choices.

However the term for what you're looking for is misogynist. Women can be misogynists too. For me, that's more useful because often women who are behaving as 'handmaidens' either don't have choices or are acting in accordance with their own internal misogyny. I think there's a difference between someone making choices to protect themselves and women actively seeking to uphold patriarchy.

Those women do exist though. And particularly in feminist spaces it's useful to have a commonly understood term to note that behaviour. For example, if someone was on a thread in chat saying Bennylyn Burke should never have gone off with someone she met online, I would handle that differently to someone wading into feminism to start a thread saying we should really make sure men like Andrew Innes access to women for sex to stop these crimes happening.

No, the Aunts in Atwood’s books also had no choice. Try reading her books.

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 19:38

Well, useful idiot for sexist men is simply too long

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:37

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 19:31

Maybe get your thread moved to FEMINIST CHAT then?

Oh my, yes I did mean to post on the other one.

While I completely respect the rights and freedoms of speech, I did make this thread, whether people like it or not, in good faith and just because you (general you) as a feminist don't agree it's important or relevant, I see no reason why I as a feminist cannot post what feels relevant and important to me.

Therefore, can I take this opportunity to say that I have posted incorrectly on Sex and Gender and perhaps if you prefer threads about sex and gender you could post on some other threads instead of this one.

In particular @EndlessTea , you've already said ages ago that you find this thread bollocks, yet continue to post on it just to take the piss.

Again, this discussion may not be relevant to you, and you may have absolutely no problem using the word handmaid and see know inherent patriarchy or hypocrisy in its use, but I do and I've been genuinely interested in most of the responses. So for the final time, just because you don't find the topic interesting or relevant, I ask why you feel the need to keep posting if that's the case, and ask that you maybe stop.

If any more posts come up actually talking about the use of the word, I'll be reading them, but I hope you understand if I don't continue to engage in the same poster pointing out over and over again that they don't agree with the premise of the thread.

OP posts:
bigbabycooker · 10/02/2023 19:37

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LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 19:36

The equivalent to a handmaiden in Attwood's world is an Aunt, someone who upholds the patriarchy for their own benefit (ie, not being sent to the colonies/be a servant). Handmaids don't have choices.

However the term for what you're looking for is misogynist. Women can be misogynists too. For me, that's more useful because often women who are behaving as 'handmaidens' either don't have choices or are acting in accordance with their own internal misogyny. I think there's a difference between someone making choices to protect themselves and women actively seeking to uphold patriarchy.

Those women do exist though. And particularly in feminist spaces it's useful to have a commonly understood term to note that behaviour. For example, if someone was on a thread in chat saying Bennylyn Burke should never have gone off with someone she met online, I would handle that differently to someone wading into feminism to start a thread saying we should really make sure men like Andrew Innes access to women for sex to stop these crimes happening.

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:36

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 19:29

Debating the words other women use is:

a)a waste of our time when we’ve got shit loads to do
b) pointless because there is no way to enforce rules even if a consensus was reached
and
c) undesirable because limits on acceptable speech are what got us to THIS shitshow.

Women should say be able to say whatever the fuck they want (and yes, that includes you complaining about the words of other women, and us telling you your complaints are a pointless waste of your own time).

So, can the word “TERF” be used too then?

bigbabycooker · 10/02/2023 19:34

Personally, I don't view it as sexist.

Obviously in the Atwood sense, it means a woman who is very clearly coerced.

However, I think that, firstly, in its dictionary definition it also means something or someone that is auxiliary to or facilitates the system in place. Not sexist.

secondly, I think that the usage is intended to emphasise that western feminists how have choices. I don't think using the insult is literally saying "you are the same as a sex slave" (and I suspect you'll find that the more popular usage of handmaiden moved away from sex slave towards someone who actually participated for personal or familial gain, as mistresses in the royal courts did). I personally think it is a shorthand for saying "why, when you could be anything else, are you being a tool for men?".

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:33

The word ‘brigading’ springs to mind

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 19:32

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You don’t seem very feminist, OP.

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 19:31

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:30

Excuse me? What does "for screen shots mean"

It's honestly so ridiculous that a thread about language and misogyny would be considered "not in the spirit" on the FEMINIST CHAT board.

Maybe get your thread moved to FEMINIST CHAT then?

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:31

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EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:30

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i think you should have that post deleted.

It is obvious you either have done something handmaiden-y and been called a handmaiden for it, and rather than wonder what that could mean, you try to shoehorn it into the bin of ‘wrong reasons people criticise me’.

Or

You like berating feminists and policing their language and have come up with an ill-informed scheme for doing so.

Either way, it is a bit weird that you are on a feminist board.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:30

ResisterRex · 10/02/2023 19:28

This thread is plainly for screen shots and is NITS

Excuse me? What does "for screen shots mean"

It's honestly so ridiculous that a thread about language and misogyny would be considered "not in the spirit" on the FEMINIST CHAT board.

OP posts:
Zephirine · 10/02/2023 19:30

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:14

That's interesting, thank you. I do find it interesting as well though that the conclusion is "it's not sexist" even though it clearly says that in the Bible, the Handmaids were women with no choice, used by men.

At the very least it's massive hypocrisy. It's using a patriarchal slur, written with a patriarchal view of women, to call women out for enforcing patriarchy.

I agree with you OP. I find women calling other women this to be the opposite of feminism.

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 19:29

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:20

I don't think we have to automatically label exploring and discussing the use of terms as tone or thought policing though, I think it's quite a cop out to think like that.

I think that if we can't call out misogynistic language in the feminist sphere, where can we?

Debating the words other women use is:

a)a waste of our time when we’ve got shit loads to do
b) pointless because there is no way to enforce rules even if a consensus was reached
and
c) undesirable because limits on acceptable speech are what got us to THIS shitshow.

Women should say be able to say whatever the fuck they want (and yes, that includes you complaining about the words of other women, and us telling you your complaints are a pointless waste of your own time).

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