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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Handmaid, Handmaiden.

283 replies

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 18:38

Can someone explain why it's been deemed appropriate to call women who appear to be defending men or considering men in any capacity, handmaids?

Does it mean something else that I'm not aware of? My understanding is it comes from the Margaret Atwood novels, referring to women who are forced into ritualistic rape, pregnancy and childbirth.

How exactly does it link to a woman who in one's opinion, chooses to serve the patriarchy. Is it a term feminists should ever use? There is a strong connotation of victim blaming if you are choosing to refer to another woman as a willing handmaid. How is it justifiable?

I'm not asking for examples of when you would consider someone fitting the definition of "handmaiden". I've seen this term thrown around on a couple of threads recently and I'm concerned that it's become a term used largely by women, to insult other women, often in the context of feminist discussions, and I find it interesting that given this very particular context, it's deemed acceptable to use? Again, given the highly misogynistic connotation feeding into the "willing female victim" narrative that already plagues patriarchal rhetoric.

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CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:24

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 20:17

Well try and set out an outer limit. When does a woman become a traitor?

Btw I have no idea - a thought

But my question isn't "can women be a traitor" or "can women be misogynistic" - the answer is self evident.

My point is, why is it okay to use a misogynistic term in the name of feminism? Because it's not a general conversation words like Handmaids are used, it's pretty exclusively to do with women's rights and feminism.

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EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:24

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:23

Secretary to the Sperm Makers?

😂 brilliant

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:23

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:21

I was thinking ‘dick-panderer’ but that has a different nuance - more like modifying what you do to be sensitive to men’s feelings and wishes at the expense of feminism.

Handmaiden has more of a feeling of a low-status official who hopes derives a sense of importance and perhaps favour through serving male interests.

Secretary to the Sperm Makers?

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 20:22

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:16

I would wonder which of your views causes people to label you a handmaiden. I know why people would label me a TERF, I am not bothered as I'm confident in my view and so don't see it as hugely insulting

See I would never use the word TERF to someone. I think it's reductive and generalising and ultimately massively unhelpful. It also shuts down discussion.

So your point basically boils down to #bekind

I would never use the term TERF or handmaiden, they are mild insults.

However I've been called a TERF or told I have TERF views. I know why people say that. If they disagree with my views and resort to insulting me that's water off a ducks back to me.

So I'm interested why you've been sufficiently offended to start a thread about this insult vs all the other insults routinely used on mumsnet?

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:21

I was thinking ‘dick-panderer’ but that has a different nuance - more like modifying what you do to be sensitive to men’s feelings and wishes at the expense of feminism.

Handmaiden has more of a feeling of a low-status official who hopes derives a sense of importance and perhaps favour through serving male interests.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:19

CountZacular · 10/02/2023 20:17

I think it’s unavoidable, whatever word you use. Think of the term ‘gender critical’ for example. Just a shorthand way to explain beliefs. It’s now used aggressively by activists as a way to shut down conversations (just have a browse through here and see how many times women are referred to as ‘the GCs’ rather than as ‘a GC person’). It’s not reached the same level of vitriol as TERF yet but it will.

Use any word you like but the behaviour of ‘handmaidens’ is negative - any word used in place of handmaiden will become subject to the same reductive shorthand insult so it’s a bit of an aimless battle.

It just feels like the usual policing of women and their language again.

I see your point but I disagree, or at least I think there is a valid alternative.

Calling the beast by its name takes away its power. If you develop a special name for something, it has the power to be co opted, or become ironic, or is dismissed as a meaningless insult.

As already said, if someone is saying something misogynistic, why not refer to it as such? If someone is displaying internalised misogyny, is it really that much harder to use those 2 words than to say Handmaid?

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ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:19

I love terf (little letters).
And terfy, and tervern and tervish.

I love terfing it up with my fellow terves.

But I would never use terf as an insult.

Handmaid, Handmaiden.
LexMitior · 10/02/2023 20:17

Well try and set out an outer limit. When does a woman become a traitor?

Btw I have no idea - a thought

CountZacular · 10/02/2023 20:17

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:10

The problem with "dick worshipper" is again it is reductive. It's also easy for the person to dismiss, because it's clearly just an insult. It doesn't engage or incite discussion, doesn't encourage self reflection.

Insulting people doesn't really challenge misogyny, especially if you yourself are using a misogynistic insult (which is my problem with Handmaid).

I think it’s unavoidable, whatever word you use. Think of the term ‘gender critical’ for example. Just a shorthand way to explain beliefs. It’s now used aggressively by activists as a way to shut down conversations (just have a browse through here and see how many times women are referred to as ‘the GCs’ rather than as ‘a GC person’). It’s not reached the same level of vitriol as TERF yet but it will.

Use any word you like but the behaviour of ‘handmaidens’ is negative - any word used in place of handmaiden will become subject to the same reductive shorthand insult so it’s a bit of an aimless battle.

It just feels like the usual policing of women and their language again.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:16

I would wonder which of your views causes people to label you a handmaiden. I know why people would label me a TERF, I am not bothered as I'm confident in my view and so don't see it as hugely insulting

See I would never use the word TERF to someone. I think it's reductive and generalising and ultimately massively unhelpful. It also shuts down discussion.

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CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:15

short sighted not to realise**

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CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:13

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 20:10

Interesting perspective thank you

I think women who get labelled "handmaiden" don't have knowledge of why their views uphold patriarchy, hence why they are so insulted.

But we have to remember that we're talking about real people, with all the same capacities as yourself. Assuming that a "handmaid" is just "ignorant" is again, reductive and kind of arrogant. A woman may come to a different conclusion to you, it's not always due to a complete lack of knowledge.

Again, dehumanising people and assuming that they're just silly women is reductive and unhelpful (and kind of misogynistic).

There are plenty of women who are genuinely ignorant when it comes to feminism, but it's short sighted to (sadly) realise that there are a decent proportion of women who make the informed decision to be antifeminist.

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mrshoho · 10/02/2023 20:12

Facilitator?? What was it that you said that gave rise to the label of handmaiden @CandlelightGlow

FKATondelayo · 10/02/2023 20:12

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 20:11

This is a proper old style FWR chat - thank you all Brew

Yeah it's good. Memories of Dittany.

GrumpyPanda · 10/02/2023 20:11

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:10

That suggests equal status

Vichy feminist?

Nellodee · 10/02/2023 20:11

When I think of collaborator, I think of France in the war, and the women who had their heads shaved for sleeping with nazis.

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 20:11

This is a proper old style FWR chat - thank you all Brew

FKATondelayo · 10/02/2023 20:11

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 20:08

An accomplice has knowledge.

Do we think handmaidens have knowledge?

They know who has the power and what they need to do to keep them on side. (At least in the short term)

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:10

Nellodee · 10/02/2023 20:09

Collaborator?

That suggests equal status

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:10

FKATondelayo · 10/02/2023 20:03

Dick worshipper also works as it references the oppressor and makes clear his structural power.

The problem with "dick worshipper" is again it is reductive. It's also easy for the person to dismiss, because it's clearly just an insult. It doesn't engage or incite discussion, doesn't encourage self reflection.

Insulting people doesn't really challenge misogyny, especially if you yourself are using a misogynistic insult (which is my problem with Handmaid).

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AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 20:10

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 20:08

An accomplice has knowledge.

Do we think handmaidens have knowledge?

Interesting perspective thank you

I think women who get labelled "handmaiden" don't have knowledge of why their views uphold patriarchy, hence why they are so insulted.

Nellodee · 10/02/2023 20:09

Collaborator?

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 20:08

An accomplice has knowledge.

Do we think handmaidens have knowledge?

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:07

FKATondelayo · 10/02/2023 20:03

Dick worshipper also works as it references the oppressor and makes clear his structural power.

I always have a wry chuckle when I see ’ball palmer’.

‘Princess Consort to the Penis People’?