Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Handmaid, Handmaiden.

283 replies

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 18:38

Can someone explain why it's been deemed appropriate to call women who appear to be defending men or considering men in any capacity, handmaids?

Does it mean something else that I'm not aware of? My understanding is it comes from the Margaret Atwood novels, referring to women who are forced into ritualistic rape, pregnancy and childbirth.

How exactly does it link to a woman who in one's opinion, chooses to serve the patriarchy. Is it a term feminists should ever use? There is a strong connotation of victim blaming if you are choosing to refer to another woman as a willing handmaid. How is it justifiable?

I'm not asking for examples of when you would consider someone fitting the definition of "handmaiden". I've seen this term thrown around on a couple of threads recently and I'm concerned that it's become a term used largely by women, to insult other women, often in the context of feminist discussions, and I find it interesting that given this very particular context, it's deemed acceptable to use? Again, given the highly misogynistic connotation feeding into the "willing female victim" narrative that already plagues patriarchal rhetoric.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:42

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:41

Yes , you may think it has nothing to do with 'The Handmaid's Tale' and maybe it originally doesn't, but it's very possible that to most people that is how it appears.

That’s because they weren’t an adult before it was made into a TV series.

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:42

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:40

That's BS. Internalised misogyny is a well known term, and obviously goes hand in hand with upholding the patriarchy.

And in any case, why wouldn't you be able to say "upholding the patriarchy" or "reinforcing the patriarchy" instead of "internalised misogyny" or (ugh) "handmaidening"?

This seems like a really disingenuous claim. "We must have our insults or no one will no what we're talking about" Yeah right.

Your versions are very boring whilst also dismissive of decades of feminist history.

I prefer something less po faced, personally.

mrshoho · 10/02/2023 20:42

OP should say what it was they said to be given the handmaiden title. That way we could help out defining.

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:41

Yes , you may think it has nothing to do with 'The Handmaid's Tale' and maybe it originally doesn't, but it's very possible that to most people that is how it appears.

ClaphamSouth · 10/02/2023 20:40

Nellodee · 10/02/2023 20:09

Collaborator?

I went down a rabbit hole in my thesaurus app:

Collaborator>Colluder>Renegade>Recreant>Tergiversator

I rather like the meanings of tergiversator and particularly recreant for this purpose. Apt.

A subservient man would probably be called emasculated or effeminate which actually are misogynistic terms.

DarkDayforMN · 10/02/2023 20:40

If you call a woman a Handmaid, you're implying a woman has a choice to be and to act as a handmaid.

Sorry, is this your logic:

  1. some handmaidens in the original sense of the term were/are slaves, therefore victims
  2. “handmaidens” in this sense have free choice, therefore are not victims.
  3. therefore the feminist use of “handmaidens” is retroactively victim blaming enslaved women from the past?

if you don’t agree with this summary of your logic, which part is wrong?

I think you are wrong about 3 following from 1 and 2.

(Does the phrase “rapists are the footsoldiers of the patriarchy” assign blame to conscripted foot soldiers of previous centuries? I think it’s a mad argument.)

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:40

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:37

Misogyny describes hatred of women motivated by prejudice whereas handmaidening describes playing a role in upholding the patriarchy.

So I don’t think substituting ‘handmaiden’ with ‘internalised misogynist’ works at all.

Besides, if calling someone a handmaiden pisses them off, I doubt they will respond positively to being called a misogynist!

That's BS. Internalised misogyny is a well known term, and obviously goes hand in hand with upholding the patriarchy.

And in any case, why wouldn't you be able to say "upholding the patriarchy" or "reinforcing the patriarchy" instead of "internalised misogyny" or (ugh) "handmaidening"?

This seems like a really disingenuous claim. "We must have our insults or no one will no what we're talking about" Yeah right.

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:40

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:39

I havent read all of this, but I agree with OP's initial post... I have also wondered the same, assuming that handmaiden was a reference to Atwood's creation.

I'm not really for, or against, but am curious at the usage

It’s nothing to do with Atwood. The OP is wrong.

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:39

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 20:38

Ooh such finger wagging

Us crotchety old terves must be feministing wrong AGAIN!

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:39

I havent read all of this, but I agree with OP's initial post... I have also wondered the same, assuming that handmaiden was a reference to Atwood's creation.

I'm not really for, or against, but am curious at the usage

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:39

A handmaiden is a female, sycophantic mug who serves male interests. There’s no male equivalent is there? Women don’t have higher status than men.

Maybe brown-nose is more commonly used about men.

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 20:38

Ooh such finger wagging

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:37

Thelnebriati · 10/02/2023 20:34

Its very sad how women's history has to be rewritten every generation. As has already been explained, the original term was 'handmaiden to the patriarchy'. If you insist on referencing The Handmaids Tale, they would be better called Aunt Lydias.

And yes, sometimes we do need a word to describe a class or type rather than an individual.

Why don't you tell that to the people who are actually the term? Why are you mad at me for pointing it out that it's being used this way, rather than people who use the word?

I've already said, that I think society needs to move away from using reductive and insulting nicknames for entire groups of people. When people say TERFs outside of Mumsnet, do you think people care about what TERFs actually believe or why, or that they're entire people with many views and life experiences? No, it's used as a hostile name to group together a whole load of people. Why exactly is that important or positive as you claim?

OP posts:
ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:37

Misogyny describes hatred of women motivated by prejudice whereas handmaidening describes playing a role in upholding the patriarchy.

So I don’t think substituting ‘handmaiden’ with ‘internalised misogynist’ works at all.

Besides, if calling someone a handmaiden pisses them off, I doubt they will respond positively to being called a misogynist!

BoredOfThisMansWorld · 10/02/2023 20:36

FKATondelayo · 10/02/2023 20:29

Women can be ignorant, bootlicking, sycophantic and mean. Why are we not supposed to mention this?

The OP's hypothesis smacks of respectability politics - women must 'do better' and always be logical, measured, articulate in every interaction and not use insults - especially not gendered* ones. Otherwise the very foundation of feminism will be shaken to the core.

"Well we were going to give you ladies rights, but you used the word 'handmaiden' and that's just not NICE."

*using 'gender' correctly here

In the absence of coherent arguments demonstrating how human beings change sex or possess gendered souls, an awful lot of the criticism levelled at feminists here amounts to scolding and telling off for lack of decorum.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/02/2023 20:36

A man who is sycophantic to the patriarchy? How does that work exactly?

Thelnebriati · 10/02/2023 20:34

Its very sad how women's history has to be rewritten every generation. As has already been explained, the original term was 'handmaiden to the patriarchy'. If you insist on referencing The Handmaids Tale, they would be better called Aunt Lydias.

And yes, sometimes we do need a word to describe a class or type rather than an individual.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:33

FKATondelayo · 10/02/2023 20:29

Women can be ignorant, bootlicking, sycophantic and mean. Why are we not supposed to mention this?

The OP's hypothesis smacks of respectability politics - women must 'do better' and always be logical, measured, articulate in every interaction and not use insults - especially not gendered* ones. Otherwise the very foundation of feminism will be shaken to the core.

"Well we were going to give you ladies rights, but you used the word 'handmaiden' and that's just not NICE."

*using 'gender' correctly here

This is actually kind of the opposite of what I'm getting at. The point is that why can't you use the words "ignorant" "bootlicking" "sycophantic" or "mean" if a woman is acting that way?

Why do you not question the use of a term that reinforces patriarchal stereotypes through it's historical and literary meaning?

Is there a special gendered word for a man who's being sycophantic? Is he a Eunuch? Or do you just say, that guy is being sycophantic?

OP posts:
DerekFaker · 10/02/2023 20:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:30

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 20:22

So your point basically boils down to #bekind

I would never use the term TERF or handmaiden, they are mild insults.

However I've been called a TERF or told I have TERF views. I know why people say that. If they disagree with my views and resort to insulting me that's water off a ducks back to me.

So I'm interested why you've been sufficiently offended to start a thread about this insult vs all the other insults routinely used on mumsnet?

Ugh. Even if being incredibly reductive, no my point is not "be kind".

My original point was, do other women not see the worrying connotations behind the word handmaid, and are you comfortable labelling women with the word, given the implication is so very very patriarchal?

TERF might be used as an insult to women, but there it's not a term that has victim blaming connotations. There's no word in there that means something else, there's no literary background to it which would give a misogynistic context to the term.

As said in the OP, I have a real problem with the word, because there is a messy and multilayered implication. There is a victim blaming connotation hidden in there. If you call a woman a Handmaid, you're implying a woman has a choice to be and to act as a handmaid. It's such a patriarchal view of women, that they are responsible for their own victimisation. It's blaming women for patriarchal values. It's very basic and typical misogyny.

OP posts:
FKATondelayo · 10/02/2023 20:29

Women can be ignorant, bootlicking, sycophantic and mean. Why are we not supposed to mention this?

The OP's hypothesis smacks of respectability politics - women must 'do better' and always be logical, measured, articulate in every interaction and not use insults - especially not gendered* ones. Otherwise the very foundation of feminism will be shaken to the core.

"Well we were going to give you ladies rights, but you used the word 'handmaiden' and that's just not NICE."

*using 'gender' correctly here

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 20:28

@CandlelightGlow - you set the terms of your own problem, didn't you? You say it is a misogynistic term, but then, I do not think that you have had agreement.

So you are left with a name that defines behaviour.

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:26

😂

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:26

Tea-Trolley-Pusher for the Testicle-Toters?

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:24

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:23

Secretary to the Sperm Makers?

Bollock-Licking-Bureaucrats?