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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Handmaid, Handmaiden.

283 replies

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 18:38

Can someone explain why it's been deemed appropriate to call women who appear to be defending men or considering men in any capacity, handmaids?

Does it mean something else that I'm not aware of? My understanding is it comes from the Margaret Atwood novels, referring to women who are forced into ritualistic rape, pregnancy and childbirth.

How exactly does it link to a woman who in one's opinion, chooses to serve the patriarchy. Is it a term feminists should ever use? There is a strong connotation of victim blaming if you are choosing to refer to another woman as a willing handmaid. How is it justifiable?

I'm not asking for examples of when you would consider someone fitting the definition of "handmaiden". I've seen this term thrown around on a couple of threads recently and I'm concerned that it's become a term used largely by women, to insult other women, often in the context of feminist discussions, and I find it interesting that given this very particular context, it's deemed acceptable to use? Again, given the highly misogynistic connotation feeding into the "willing female victim" narrative that already plagues patriarchal rhetoric.

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EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 21:21

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:16

But you're replacing objective truth with human behaviour. People are using the term Handmaid as an insult toward women who don't agree with them and who are in their opinion (bearing in mind that opinion is subjective) upholding the patriarchy.

You can't just say "the argument is wrong" because you obviously can't prove that absolutely no one is using the term "handmaid" as an insult in the way I am saying they are.

This thread is moving quickly, I don’t know if you saw that I ask where and when ‘Handmaid’ is used as an insult. I haven’t seen it.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:19

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 21:13

🙃

But I clearly go on to explain both my understanding and the context it has been used in RIGHT under the bit you have cropped out! You can clearly see I'm referring to the Margaret Atwood novels!

I've asked if there is another meaning, some people have talked about older meanings, it's a discussion. I still don't believe that means that nobody in the world is using the word handmaid as an insult to women and are doing so with their frame of reference for the term being the MA books/TV show.

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Twawmyarse2 · 10/02/2023 21:17

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 20:48

You could call such women Sturgeons?

Now THAT’S an insult!

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:16

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 21:10

It’s annoying that people keep coming up with this same thing, same argument that is wrong. I blame Margaret Atwood.

I mean BlessedKali, if someone said - Kali is the consort of Vishnu, then they started pontificating a whole lot of stuff based on that wrong premise, which resulted in them coming to the conclusion that anyone who uses the name Kali who isn’t a Vaishnava insults her name.

You might feel the need to set them straight, right?

What if that started to happen, with increasing frequency because a popular TV show came out which made them think this?

Your tone might get a bit exasperated I imagine.

But you're replacing objective truth with human behaviour. People are using the term Handmaid as an insult toward women who don't agree with them and who are in their opinion (bearing in mind that opinion is subjective) upholding the patriarchy.

You can't just say "the argument is wrong" because you obviously can't prove that absolutely no one is using the term "handmaid" as an insult in the way I am saying they are.

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Thelnebriati · 10/02/2023 21:15

'Handmaidens to the patriarchy' are the women that uphold the patriarchy. They are the original founder members of the Female Misogynist Club.

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 21:13

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:09

I thought policing the language women use is a waste of time 🙄

In case it's been lost on you, my entire post is centred on the use of the word handmaid which people have been using as an insult more commonly recently, which I am attributing to the popularity of the Show/book 'The Handmaid's Tale'.

🙃

Handmaid, Handmaiden.
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:12

Brefugee · 10/02/2023 21:10

I'm so uncomfortable with the use of the word. It's just yet another way women are blamed for their own sexual victimisation.

meh. They're victimising women who don't bow down at the altar of Men Are Right To Be In Charge Of Everything. And when the beast of patriarchy turns on them? i will laugh and laugh and laugh

Atwood used the word Handmaid. She's an educated woman. It is entirely possible she used it with purpose, isn't it?

Can you genuinely not see the difference between the use of the term in the book, where in the book it's a term directly employed by a society that is as both patriarchal and misogynistic as possible, and the use of the same term as a derogatory term toward women, by other women?

Are they genuinely the same thing to you?

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EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 21:10

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 21:01

Well i suppose if it's annoying just don't engage?

It’s annoying that people keep coming up with this same thing, same argument that is wrong. I blame Margaret Atwood.

I mean BlessedKali, if someone said - Kali is the consort of Vishnu, then they started pontificating a whole lot of stuff based on that wrong premise, which resulted in them coming to the conclusion that anyone who uses the name Kali who isn’t a Vaishnava insults her name.

You might feel the need to set them straight, right?

What if that started to happen, with increasing frequency because a popular TV show came out which made them think this?

Your tone might get a bit exasperated I imagine.

Brefugee · 10/02/2023 21:10

I'm so uncomfortable with the use of the word. It's just yet another way women are blamed for their own sexual victimisation.

meh. They're victimising women who don't bow down at the altar of Men Are Right To Be In Charge Of Everything. And when the beast of patriarchy turns on them? i will laugh and laugh and laugh

Atwood used the word Handmaid. She's an educated woman. It is entirely possible she used it with purpose, isn't it?

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 21:10

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:09

I thought policing the language women use is a waste of time 🙄

In case it's been lost on you, my entire post is centred on the use of the word handmaid which people have been using as an insult more commonly recently, which I am attributing to the popularity of the Show/book 'The Handmaid's Tale'.

I’m asking you questions, not telling you not to speak.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:09

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 21:05

Repeatedly denying that ‘handmaiden’ (with an en on the end) has a distinct feminist subcultural usage that predates the telly programme is you denying feminist history. Every time you type ‘handmaid’ instead of ‘handmaiden’ you deny feminist history.

You can, of course, try to erase feminist history if you feel strongly compelled to do so but perhaps ask yourself where that compulsion comes from first?

why were you so hurt by the accusation of handmaidening for the patriarchy?

is it because you were actually handmaidening for the patriarchy at the time?

You know who else would love to see feminist history and language erased?

Men’s Rights Activists.

I thought policing the language women use is a waste of time 🙄

In case it's been lost on you, my entire post is centred on the use of the word handmaid which people have been using as an insult more commonly recently, which I am attributing to the popularity of the Show/book 'The Handmaid's Tale'.

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ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 21:08

Popular debate in the modern church, Would you rather be Eve or Mary? Stroppy and disobedient or an obedient mother figure?

Eve.
Always!

(resists urge to make Slytherin joke)

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:06

ThrowawayBerna · 10/02/2023 21:03

If there's a sexual slavery connotation coming from ancient usage or modern short-term understanding, then I'm okay with not using handmaid I guess? I rarely if ever use it and thought it was solely an obedient lady's maid in the master's house which fits the original HOP use.

I do like 'pick me'.

Non sexually demeaning, and apt for libfems, as in their apple for teacher eagerness, which I do want to criticise.

That's my main point, I find it strange that women are okay to use a term with those connotations especially when they claim to be feminists.

I don't like the term "pick me" either. I have been reevaluating my own use of the term "incel" (not that I say it, just think it or hear it said a lot) and I really don't think derogatory words are helpful in general. Everyone is so keen to label people and I find it dehumanising and reductive.

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ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 21:05

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:56

Challenging some random poster on mumsnet who, whenever someone disagrees with them, asks them "how long they've been a feminist for" is not waving away decades of feminist history🙄🙄

Repeatedly denying that ‘handmaiden’ (with an en on the end) has a distinct feminist subcultural usage that predates the telly programme is you denying feminist history. Every time you type ‘handmaid’ instead of ‘handmaiden’ you deny feminist history.

You can, of course, try to erase feminist history if you feel strongly compelled to do so but perhaps ask yourself where that compulsion comes from first?

why were you so hurt by the accusation of handmaidening for the patriarchy?

is it because you were actually handmaidening for the patriarchy at the time?

You know who else would love to see feminist history and language erased?

Men’s Rights Activists.

ThrowawayBerna · 10/02/2023 21:03

If there's a sexual slavery connotation coming from ancient usage or modern short-term understanding, then I'm okay with not using handmaid I guess? I rarely if ever use it and thought it was solely an obedient lady's maid in the master's house which fits the original HOP use.

I do like 'pick me'.

Non sexually demeaning, and apt for libfems, as in their apple for teacher eagerness, which I do want to criticise.

anexcellentwoman · 10/02/2023 21:01

In the Bible, Eve is the first woman. She disobeys God and is cast out of the Garden of Eden. In the New Testament, Mary is presented as the new reformed Eve. She is obedient to God and she declares in Luke chapter 1 verse 38

Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.

She became the figurehead of the Roman Catholic Church because of her obedience. She is regarded by the RC Church as a perfect example for all women.

Popular debate in the modern church, Would you rather be Eve or Mary? Stroppy and disobedient or an obedient mother figure?

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 21:01

Well i suppose if it's annoying just don't engage?

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:00

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:59

I like this...

Ha! There's a term more commonly used for women like this in communities I lurk in, they're called "Pick me's"

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EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:59

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:58

So very possible that for us younger feminists, newer to the scene, it has quite strong, contradictory connotations.

I dont give a shit who uses it, its just interesting.

Yes, I can definitely see that.

It is a bit annoying though, that it keeps coming up.

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:59

I like this...

Handmaid, Handmaiden.
BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:58

So very possible that for us younger feminists, newer to the scene, it has quite strong, contradictory connotations.

I dont give a shit who uses it, its just interesting.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:57

BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:55

OP how old are you, out of interest?

I'm 29

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EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 20:56

‘Sturgeoning‘ so perfect. It sounds like headlong speeding to brown-nose the patriarchy.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:56

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 20:54

Young women can be feminists but they can’t just handwave away feminist history because someone called them a handmaiden and it made them feel bad.

Challenging some random poster on mumsnet who, whenever someone disagrees with them, asks them "how long they've been a feminist for" is not waving away decades of feminist history🙄🙄

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BlessedKali · 10/02/2023 20:55

OP how old are you, out of interest?