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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Handmaid, Handmaiden.

283 replies

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 18:38

Can someone explain why it's been deemed appropriate to call women who appear to be defending men or considering men in any capacity, handmaids?

Does it mean something else that I'm not aware of? My understanding is it comes from the Margaret Atwood novels, referring to women who are forced into ritualistic rape, pregnancy and childbirth.

How exactly does it link to a woman who in one's opinion, chooses to serve the patriarchy. Is it a term feminists should ever use? There is a strong connotation of victim blaming if you are choosing to refer to another woman as a willing handmaid. How is it justifiable?

I'm not asking for examples of when you would consider someone fitting the definition of "handmaiden". I've seen this term thrown around on a couple of threads recently and I'm concerned that it's become a term used largely by women, to insult other women, often in the context of feminist discussions, and I find it interesting that given this very particular context, it's deemed acceptable to use? Again, given the highly misogynistic connotation feeding into the "willing female victim" narrative that already plagues patriarchal rhetoric.

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CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:53

And to be fair, as unpalatable as it is to see women suffering internalised misogyny and defending the patriarchy, I still think that labelling them all as a homogenous and deliberately maligned group is not a good approach.

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BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 10/02/2023 21:52

You keep saying that, but without an example showing the link to the book there's no reason for us to assume you're right.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:49

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2023 21:46

It’s nothing to do with Atwood’s book.

It’s ‘handmaiden’ not ‘handmaid’.

The whole phrase is ‘handmaiden of patriarchy’ (‘HOP’ for short) and iirc the reference is biblical.

This. It would be nice if people made at least a tiny effort to get their facts straight.

In the posts I'm talking about on mumsnet and elsewhere it is definitely not nothing to do with the books/series.

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CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:47

It's completely irrelevant, is it not clear by now that I don't have to and won't be discussing that? It's not the point of my thread at all.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2023 21:46

It’s nothing to do with Atwood’s book.

It’s ‘handmaiden’ not ‘handmaid’.

The whole phrase is ‘handmaiden of patriarchy’ (‘HOP’ for short) and iirc the reference is biblical.

This. It would be nice if people made at least a tiny effort to get their facts straight.

mrshoho · 10/02/2023 21:44

Just tell us what you've said that caused you to be called a handmaiden please @CandlelightGlow .

Brefugee · 10/02/2023 21:43

i think the handmaid vs handmaiden discusion is a bit useless really. Since the word Handmaid pops up so much more now (because of the series) some people appear to be using it interchangably.

And if there was any doubt: if i refer to someone as a handmaiden it's not a compliment.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:41

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 21:37

Lots of people have asked what your beliefs are that caused you to be called a handmaid but you won't say
So this doesn't seem to be about you wanting to discuss your feminist beliefs

TBH not sure what you do want from the thread at this point Confused

I was interested in what I outlined in my OP, what is the confusion?

What is it about not knowing "what your beliefs are that caused you to be called a handmaid" that makes it impossible for anyone to engage with the OP?

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LexMitior · 10/02/2023 21:40

Yes that little "en" makes a big difference

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 21:38

LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 21:32

Handmaiden is used as an insult on here all the time, it's disingenuous to pretend it isn't. Sometimes it's warranted imo - as when a poster plops onto a threat to victim blame or not my Nigel, other times it isn't. See also cool wife and cool girlfriend.

I'm not sure I agree with the OP and would like to know what the circumstances were when she was called a handmaiden, but let's not argue black is white. You know handmaiden is used as an insult, the question really is more 'is it warranted'. Sometimes it is. It's OK to be pissed off. I mean, you're (one) isn't going to change any minds when expressing your pissed-offedness, but it's OK to feel and express it.

You misunderstood the question.

‘Handmaiden’ is used by feminists as insulting insult, yes. Absolutely, has been for decades.

But Tea asked about ‘Handmaid’.

She’s trying to ascertain where OPs mix up occurred.

When feminists use handmaiden as an insult they aren’t calling the other woman an enslaved, raped surrogate mother, which is what a ‘Handmaid’ (no en!) is in Atwood’s book.

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 21:38

Handmaiden is used as an insult on here all the time

Maybe it is, but ‘handmaid’? Not seen that around here. Just wondered where that was going on.

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 21:37

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:31

How can we ever have a discussion amongst feminists with different beliefs, if every single talking point is framed as "you're just telling other feminists they're doing it wrong".

Lots of people have asked what your beliefs are that caused you to be called a handmaid but you won't say
So this doesn't seem to be about you wanting to discuss your feminist beliefs

TBH not sure what you do want from the thread at this point Confused

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:37

And they come and pile on and any posters who were actually interested in the discussion, or had interesting points to make, leave quickly, and it just becomes a couple of posters repeatedly saying various forms of "you're wrong"

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Brefugee · 10/02/2023 21:36

we don't need a discussion about it. We use shorthand for all sorts of things. Shorthand words convey a whole raft of meaning in one word. Like Hygge in Danish or Heimat in German. You can translate them as "cosy" or "home" but they mean so so so much more than that.

So when i see a woman throw women under the bus by cosying up to TRAs or MRAs or being anti feminist? You can bet i will call her a handmaiden or one of the others. Because it describes what she is doing perfectly. And here's the thing: they don't often describe themselves as feminists.

I have too much to worry about without worrying about if the next generation of feminists is going to whine about the shorthand. I don't need to discuss my feminism. And, tbh, because I'm a feminist, if other women want to be handmaidens? that is entirely up to them. And they can carry on as much as they like until it affects other women negatively. Then? I'll call them on it.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:34

LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 21:32

Handmaiden is used as an insult on here all the time, it's disingenuous to pretend it isn't. Sometimes it's warranted imo - as when a poster plops onto a threat to victim blame or not my Nigel, other times it isn't. See also cool wife and cool girlfriend.

I'm not sure I agree with the OP and would like to know what the circumstances were when she was called a handmaiden, but let's not argue black is white. You know handmaiden is used as an insult, the question really is more 'is it warranted'. Sometimes it is. It's OK to be pissed off. I mean, you're (one) isn't going to change any minds when expressing your pissed-offedness, but it's OK to feel and express it.

This is the problem I have on here. It's like a bad game, where I have to pretend that people are engaging in good faith, when I know that really they're not.

OP posts:
LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 21:32

Handmaiden is used as an insult on here all the time, it's disingenuous to pretend it isn't. Sometimes it's warranted imo - as when a poster plops onto a threat to victim blame or not my Nigel, other times it isn't. See also cool wife and cool girlfriend.

I'm not sure I agree with the OP and would like to know what the circumstances were when she was called a handmaiden, but let's not argue black is white. You know handmaiden is used as an insult, the question really is more 'is it warranted'. Sometimes it is. It's OK to be pissed off. I mean, you're (one) isn't going to change any minds when expressing your pissed-offedness, but it's OK to feel and express it.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:31

Brefugee · 10/02/2023 21:26

Can you genuinely not see the difference between the use of the term in the book, where in the book it's a term directly employed by a society that is as both patriarchal and misogynistic as possible, and the use of the same term as a derogatory term toward women, by other women?

I have been around the block a lot of times. Frankly? If they are acting like a PickMe or a CoolGirl or a Handmaiden (or Handmaid) then I'll call them on it. I literally don't care about their hurty feels.

It has been used, afaik, since before the book. Atwood is astute, she knows what words can do and which words to pick. But all I'm seeing on this thread is OP telling feminists that they're doing it wrong. Well, here's the thing. There are lots of ways to feminist. And they're not wrong. Hadmaidening, doing the Pick Me dance and being a Cool Girl? not so much.

How can we ever have a discussion amongst feminists with different beliefs, if every single talking point is framed as "you're just telling other feminists they're doing it wrong".

OP posts:
ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 21:30

‘Assistant Sturgeon to the Society of Spermfolk’?

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:29

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 21:21

This thread is moving quickly, I don’t know if you saw that I ask where and when ‘Handmaid’ is used as an insult. I haven’t seen it.

I've actually seen it a fair few times on mumsnet. The latest time was just the other day, it wasn't even a feminism thread.

Remember I'm not just talking about when it's used with an insulting tone, but when referring to women.

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ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 21:28

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 21:21

This thread is moving quickly, I don’t know if you saw that I ask where and when ‘Handmaid’ is used as an insult. I haven’t seen it.

Seconded

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 21:27

I reckon Sturgeons have lots of knowledge. Worse than handmaidens

Brefugee · 10/02/2023 21:26

Can you genuinely not see the difference between the use of the term in the book, where in the book it's a term directly employed by a society that is as both patriarchal and misogynistic as possible, and the use of the same term as a derogatory term toward women, by other women?

I have been around the block a lot of times. Frankly? If they are acting like a PickMe or a CoolGirl or a Handmaiden (or Handmaid) then I'll call them on it. I literally don't care about their hurty feels.

It has been used, afaik, since before the book. Atwood is astute, she knows what words can do and which words to pick. But all I'm seeing on this thread is OP telling feminists that they're doing it wrong. Well, here's the thing. There are lots of ways to feminist. And they're not wrong. Hadmaidening, doing the Pick Me dance and being a Cool Girl? not so much.

mrshoho · 10/02/2023 21:25

Maybe OP you could reflect on what behaviour you displayed to be given the handmaiden title.

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 21:24

mrshoho · 10/02/2023 21:22

Sturgeon is apt. Sturgeoning. I th8nk this could catch on.

‘Sturgeoning to destruction’

mrshoho · 10/02/2023 21:22

Sturgeon is apt. Sturgeoning. I th8nk this could catch on.