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Original poster

Handmaid, Handmaiden.

283 replies

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 18:38

Can someone explain why it's been deemed appropriate to call women who appear to be defending men or considering men in any capacity, handmaids?

Does it mean something else that I'm not aware of? My understanding is it comes from the Margaret Atwood novels, referring to women who are forced into ritualistic rape, pregnancy and childbirth.

How exactly does it link to a woman who in one's opinion, chooses to serve the patriarchy. Is it a term feminists should ever use? There is a strong connotation of victim blaming if you are choosing to refer to another woman as a willing handmaid. How is it justifiable?

I'm not asking for examples of when you would consider someone fitting the definition of "handmaiden". I've seen this term thrown around on a couple of threads recently and I'm concerned that it's become a term used largely by women, to insult other women, often in the context of feminist discussions, and I find it interesting that given this very particular context, it's deemed acceptable to use? Again, given the highly misogynistic connotation feeding into the "willing female victim" narrative that already plagues patriarchal rhetoric.

OP posts:
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Original poster
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 22:38

bigbabycooker · 10/02/2023 22:30

I wonder if your question really matters that much, insofar as I think when you were called a handmaiden (which can be used as a phrase in totally unfeminist discussions -
"Archaeology is the handmaiden to history" is a widely known phrase in certain circles and in that sense handmaiden means subservient and diminished. Do you think that this means that archaeologists have been raped and coerced?! Do you think the phrase should never be used again?), I think that you know what people were saying. They were not calling you a sex slave, but someone serving the patriarchy. I think you know that. Isn't that just evolution of language?

I do think that calling people names is not usually any more helpful in the context of an argument, though? Would you prefer someone to say instead "I think that your views really just make you an apologist for misogyny"? For future reference Wink

I'd also like to ask you a question, given you have been called a handmaiden and the combative approach here that have taken suggesting you like rational discussion and attempts to understand arguments from the other side: why do you think that you make elaborate attempts to centre and empathise with male interests over female ones?

Yes I think that focusing on discussing, unpicking and even attacking the individual view point is much more useful than writing someone off with an insult.

In answer to your archeology point, absolutely, and I could be totally, wildly wrong in my assumption as to the context in which the term handmaid has been used, and this could be influenced by the impact THT had on me. I do genuinely still believe I'm not wrong that the term is being used with the books/show in mind, but the scope could definitely be less than I thought. I'm not sure really how I feel about the term in general though, even the HOP context. I regret that the discussion has become more of a "should we use the term" because posters have assumed I'm trying to police language etc, but I was really looking at it from more of a philosophical point of view. I do think it's wrong, but I'm not stating it's wrong just to get people to stop using it, if that makes sense? I wanted to share why I felt so uncomfortable with the term, and wondered if people agreed.

In answer to your last question, I absolutely do not make elaborate attempts to centre men. My post here was solely focused on women, terms referring to women, and terms used mostly by women.

OP posts:
ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 22:36

nepeta · 10/02/2023 22:32

That would be my guess, too, that she chose that term for her book because part of her initial sources of inspiration included the American far-right Evangelical Protestantism with its literal reading of the Bible. This made it something many readers could fit into their own frame of the world, i.e., the reference to good, modest, silent, obedient Christian women who did what they were told as that was the divine wish.

I have not seen the terms used now by GC feminists in the sense that would imply victim-blaming. Rather, the implicit assumption is that the women accused of handmaidening are fully aware of whose needs they choose to prioritise (those of male people) while still regarding themselves as feminists.

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Surrended wives, I think, IIR FloralBunting’s posts C?

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 22:34

EsmaCannonball · 10/02/2023 22:29

Sorry to further tone police, but if we are going to coin terms like, 'Sturgeon,' 'Sturgeoning,' or, 'she's trying to pull off a Sturgeon,' could we remember the capital 'S'? It would be wrong to malign an entire fish species.

Good point.

Noted.

Poor sturgeons, it would be very unfair to mistake them for Minions to the MenFolx.

bigbabycooker · 10/02/2023 22:33

Sorry that should mean un-feminist-related discussions. Archaeology and history can be compatible with feminism!

nepeta · 10/02/2023 22:32

ScrollingLeaves · 10/02/2023 22:09

Doesn’t it pre-date Margaret Atwood who would herself have been drawing on connotations from passages in the Bible?

Also certain fundamentalist religious communities, whether Christian or Muslim, sometimes expect complete subservience from the wife

That would be my guess, too, that she chose that term for her book because part of her initial sources of inspiration included the American far-right Evangelical Protestantism with its literal reading of the Bible. This made it something many readers could fit into their own frame of the world, i.e., the reference to good, modest, silent, obedient Christian women who did what they were told as that was the divine wish.

I have not seen the terms used now by GC feminists in the sense that would imply victim-blaming. Rather, the implicit assumption is that the women accused of handmaidening are fully aware of whose needs they choose to prioritise (those of male people) while still regarding themselves as feminists.

Original poster
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 22:31

I;m very very clearly not going to get an interesting discussion here. Any poster who would have been half way interested will have been put off pages and pages ago, when it just became a back and forth between a couple of posters.

OP posts:
bigbabycooker · 10/02/2023 22:30

I wonder if your question really matters that much, insofar as I think when you were called a handmaiden (which can be used as a phrase in totally unfeminist discussions -
"Archaeology is the handmaiden to history" is a widely known phrase in certain circles and in that sense handmaiden means subservient and diminished. Do you think that this means that archaeologists have been raped and coerced?! Do you think the phrase should never be used again?), I think that you know what people were saying. They were not calling you a sex slave, but someone serving the patriarchy. I think you know that. Isn't that just evolution of language?

I do think that calling people names is not usually any more helpful in the context of an argument, though? Would you prefer someone to say instead "I think that your views really just make you an apologist for misogyny"? For future reference Wink

I'd also like to ask you a question, given you have been called a handmaiden and the combative approach here that have taken suggesting you like rational discussion and attempts to understand arguments from the other side: why do you think that you make elaborate attempts to centre and empathise with male interests over female ones?

EsmaCannonball · 10/02/2023 22:29

Sorry to further tone police, but if we are going to coin terms like, 'Sturgeon,' 'Sturgeoning,' or, 'she's trying to pull off a Sturgeon,' could we remember the capital 'S'? It would be wrong to malign an entire fish species.

Original poster
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 22:29

OneMorePlant · 10/02/2023 22:25

OP you are being awfully rude to everyone and dismissing everyone who you don't agree with.

You want interesting discussions you might want to tone down the arrogance and snark.

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Not really, people are being absolutely awful. They're not engaging with the thread at all but have continued to post throughout to basically invalidate my opinion.

I'm absolutely not dismissing anyone i disagree with, I'm either engaging with them or pointing out that they're just taking issue with me, rather than actually contributing to the discussion. That is not arrogance and is an appropriate level of snark.

OP posts:
OneMorePlant · 10/02/2023 22:25

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 22:22

I am a feminist thanks. I don't need the approval of some random person on the internet to consider myself a feminist.

I think people need to separate someone disagreeing with them with personal attacks. I'm not saying I don't understand the points or that they're wrong objectively, I'm allowed to disagree, it's a discussion! The only people who have taken it personally or been argumentative have been rude themselves.

It's not a binary concept, I'm genuinely interested in other people's opinions, but just asserting that I'm wrong isn't exactly an opinion. Plenty of people on the thread have had interesting opinions and written interesting posts.

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OP you are being awfully rude to everyone and dismissing everyone who you don't agree with.

You want interesting discussions you might want to tone down the arrogance and snark.

Original poster
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 22:22

mrshoho · 10/02/2023 22:18

Come off it. You've been told over and over why handmaiden is used. You don't like it but that is the answer. You've every right to say you don't like it but the explanation has been given. You're no feminist as your posts make evident.

I am a feminist thanks. I don't need the approval of some random person on the internet to consider myself a feminist.

I think people need to separate someone disagreeing with them with personal attacks. I'm not saying I don't understand the points or that they're wrong objectively, I'm allowed to disagree, it's a discussion! The only people who have taken it personally or been argumentative have been rude themselves.

It's not a binary concept, I'm genuinely interested in other people's opinions, but just asserting that I'm wrong isn't exactly an opinion. Plenty of people on the thread have had interesting opinions and written interesting posts.

OP posts:
ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 22:19

Whenever I see The Handmaid’s Tale referenced on here it’s usually either

a) on a surrogacy thread (phrased something like ‘Welcome to Gilead!’)
or
b) as pushback against being told what to do, or being watched (eg ‘Sorry Aunt Lydia’ or ‘Under Xir’s Eye’)

In both cases the Handmaids of the book are being sympathised with, not criticised.

And whenever someone is called a ‘handmaiden’ it’s an accusation of colluding with the oppressor class and refers to the Mary-submitting-herself-to-God-type-handmaiden, not a ‘plucky-June-killing-the-creepy-commander-at-Jezebels’ handmaid.

So while I agree that it’s annoying and nit picky to care so much about an extra en, those two letters are a really important differential for two separate references.

it would make no sense for terves to use the Atwood ‘handmaid’ as an insult whilst also donning the bonnet costume for protests.
Once you consider the two different literary references it makes a lot more sense.

mrshoho · 10/02/2023 22:18

Come off it. You've been told over and over why handmaiden is used. You don't like it but that is the answer. You've every right to say you don't like it but the explanation has been given. You're no feminist as your posts make evident.

Original poster
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 22:12

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2023 22:04

Just making it crystal clear, OP, that I'm not interested in your tone policing, and will speak as I see fit.

With all due respect, this is just hot air though. I'm interested in discussing what opinions are around the use of misogynistic terms and thinking regarding other women. Whether it's helpful, and why it's considered okay. Attacking me is so boring, it's just a discussion, I'm not "policing" anyone, I've given my take, and am interested in others. Literally nothing I do or say will influence the way you live your life, I'm not following you around online correcting things you say, or begging you to not use the terms. I find it really immature that people feel the need to try and be biting and condescending, when it's a discussion.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 10/02/2023 22:09

Doesn’t it pre-date Margaret Atwood who would herself have been drawing on connotations from passages in the Bible?

Also certain fundamentalist religious communities, whether Christian or Muslim, sometimes expect complete subservience from the wife

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2023 22:06

The biblical references are pertinent because they demonstrate that the terms handmaid and handmaiden predate The Handmaid’s Tale by two thousand years, and so you can’t define those terms solely in reference to THT.

Exactly.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2023 22:04

Just making it crystal clear, OP, that I'm not interested in your tone policing, and will speak as I see fit.

Original poster
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 22:02

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2023 21:59

I don't like the term "pick me" either. I have been reevaluating my own use of the term "incel" (not that I say it, just think it or hear it said a lot) and I really don't think derogatory words are helpful in general. Everyone is so keen to label people and I find it dehumanising and reductive.

Good, you do you. And other people will do otherwise.

Well, yes, captain obvious, thanks for the input.

Are we not allowed to discuss anything about human behaviour, society or feminism because people are people who have opinions? Honestly I don't understand this place - if you don't like the topic of the thread or don't think it's interesting r relevant why bother to post?

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2023 21:59

I don't like the term "pick me" either. I have been reevaluating my own use of the term "incel" (not that I say it, just think it or hear it said a lot) and I really don't think derogatory words are helpful in general. Everyone is so keen to label people and I find it dehumanising and reductive.

Good, you do you. And other people will do otherwise.

Original poster
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:58

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 10/02/2023 21:54

The biblical references are pertinent because they demonstrate that the terms handmaid and handmaiden predate The Handmaid’s Tale by two thousand years, and so you can’t define those terms solely in reference to THT.

So using the terms handmaid or handmaiden in ways that don’t refer to THT is not wrong - just a different use of the terms.

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That's fair.

What I would say though, is, is the older version of the term being used today in any less misogynistic ways, or is it still being used to dismiss and label women, and make assumptions about their wider views toward women and feminism?

OP posts:
LexMitior · 10/02/2023 21:57

But it's your contention, OP. So back it up!

Original poster
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 21:55

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 10/02/2023 21:52

You keep saying that, but without an example showing the link to the book there's no reason for us to assume you're right.

Nobody is going to write an explanation of the term they're using and its origins when they're using the term as an insult/colloquialisation, so how am I supposed to provide that?

I've seen it with my own eyes, and although it's a lot to wade through, you can do an advance search on mumsnet which will provide some illustrative posts.

OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 10/02/2023 21:54

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:11

I don't understand what other biblical stories have to do with anything though?

Women aren't going around referring to other women they disagree with as "right hands". They're calling them Handmaids.

The biblical references are pertinent because they demonstrate that the terms handmaid and handmaiden predate The Handmaid’s Tale by two thousand years, and so you can’t define those terms solely in reference to THT.

So using the terms handmaid or handmaiden in ways that don’t refer to THT is not wrong - just a different use of the terms.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2023 21:54

Secretary to the Sperm Makers?

Testicle tenders

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2023 21:53

Handmaiden has more of a feeling of a low-status official who hopes derives a sense of importance and perhaps favour through serving male interests.

Yes, this. And I don't always use the word, but that's how I see some of the TRA women.