Maya’s response to Radical Notion’s GC divisions

I'm with Binturong on that. I went to university in 1979 and the feminism I encountered at the time, and in the early 80s, was a feminism that wanted equal access to opportunities and all women allowed choices in their lives. It certainly wasn't that we wanted to be like men.

It wasn't until the late 80s and early 90s that, living and working in London, I noticed ladette culture masquerading as feminism. In 1995 I was managing a growing team of new graduates and if the subject of feminism came up the young women were all 'I'm not a feminist' unless the talk was about sex, when they concluded that feminism was about being able to sleep around and drink like men. I was only in my mid 30s and I was already being treated like a hairy-legged dinosaur by the young feminist/ not feminist brigade.

In 2003 or 2004 I went to a feminist conference and found myself surrounded by third-wavers who brought along their boyfriends and talked about being kind and being queer. One of them told me my nanna feminism was irrelevant. Not long after that I attended a 'How can second wavers and third wavers bridge the divide?' event. By that time Women's Studies had been almost completely overtaken by Gender Studies and the gender rot was well-established.

Our comms need to get smarter - absolutely!

Me too lol. Will catch up with this thread later 🙂

I can't agree that second wave feminism was about 'behaving like a man' (I'll conceed the point on 3rd much of the wave).

They wanted the same rights and opportunities as men, but certainly not to behave like them. Indeed, they didn't want men to behave 'like men' as it was understood at the time, never mind joining in!

Dismantling patriarchal systems and beliefs; separatist and political lesbian movements; all the work against domestic violence, sexual harassment, pornography; the wages for housework movement which believed that traditional 'women's' work should not be womens only choice but that those who chose it should be valued and paid. None of these were about behaving like men.

I think there is rape culture for sure, but it is in pockets that many decent men don't get to see in their day to day life and so can and do ignore - perhaps willfully. There is a rape culture in certain police forces etc and in many areas of the UK and in many professions. I don't deny it. I am saying though that our comms need to get smarter. The AMALT model is not getting the message over. Quite the opposite.

I've really enjoyed talking with you guys today. Need to get a bit of work done though 😁

@EndlessTea last post is spot on!

@JoodyBlue Yes I completely see that - all of us naturally get defensive when accused. And I'm worried about the backlash against social justice activism because whilst it deserves plenty of criticism, there are valid points in there. For example I heard Andrew Doyle (fantastic on trans issue) say there's no evidence of rape culture in society and that's just another form of extreme ideology.

I think sexism harms men as much as women. But with women the scars are more obvious. Does that make sense? Men need to be able to open up into their emotions etc. where they want to. Many do.

I think in our culture, where there is relative parity, it can look this way on the surface, but when you dig deeper, it’s a false equivalence. I am not losing ‘patriarchy’ from my lexicon, even though I know it tends to put men on the back foot.

Having said that I think that the sexism exhibited by men like Bill Maher, Hugh Hefner, Andrew Tate, etc - that women are inferior, merely objects to be used, abused and discarded by men, is harmful for men.

Men get security, purpose and meaning from fatherhood, (and inner peace) and (although he can be a bit of a waffling windbag), I like the fact that Jordan Peterson is trying to help young men see that. The BM/HH/AT type of sexism, basically promoting pathological attachment issues in men, serves to untether men from having a lovely life.

there's the economics of it though -- my babies were not easy raisers!!! But partly looking back, the tiredness and the struggle of it all was part of the bonding process perhaps - maybe just rose tinted glasses now

This is where I think men having paternity leave and encouraging them to work part time is really important. Yes the idea of equal paternity leave instinctively sounds ridiculous because men do not need to physically heal from the huge process of giving birth, they're not breastfeeding etc. But it makes childrearing and working not a "women's issue" but a parents issue. And it also allows pooling of resources as is meant to be in a family structure: the women can let her body heal, if she is breastfeeding she will likely be sleep deprived, so the man can take the lion's share of domestic work to support her. If she is bottle feeding the man can share the burden of waking up in the middle of the night.

The focus on motherhood and work is annoys me so much and is such a burden on women because it's two people deciding to have a child!

@EndlessTea I was the pre-pregnant woman who swore she would never go to a mum's coffee morning. Then 7 weeks into motherhood of no sleep, struggling to feed, recovering from C-section I went to one. There was a group of women who had a common purpose, caring for kids. We would support everyone in the group without exception in that common purpose, no questions asked.

Decades on, I am still friends with the 3 with whom I had interests other than childrearing. One is a person, whom I am very close to, and whom I never would previously have spoken to outside a baby group because we were opposed politically in almost every way. Over the years neither of us has changed our fundamental views but we have learned so much from each other - listening sensitively and taking turns to speak started sitting on the floor of a church hall.

Actually what I've just written above would extend to the current wave of social justice activism generally.

@thedankness I agree with your post pretty much word for word.

I think Helen Joyce recommends a book called something like "Getting to Yes" (sorry not more specific). The subject matter though is about influencing and being able to first be heard, and then negotiate best case for each party involved in a discussion, often through compromise.

My instinctive kick against the word "partriarchy" is that I see that it turns my lovely, kind, strong, funny, caring OH right off. I see this in many of his contemporaries and also in my sons. I saw it in my father. It feels like shouting at them pre-emptively and therefore is counterproductive.

Party I think sexism harms men as much as women. But with women the scars are more obvious. Does that make sense? Men need to be able to open up into their emotions etc. where they want to. Many do.

I feel that we need a radical feminist reimagining of how society can be structured, but in such a way that doesn’t mean mothers have to endure painful separation from their children, or women don’t have to forgo motherhood, in order to have financial, social and political power. I think it is possible now that we have the internet, conference calls, etc.

In my fantasies, I imagine a ‘mothers chamber’ in parliament, like the House of Lords, where mothers can oversee, block and suggest amendments to legislation….

I worked outside the home too - I think it did save my sanity, cos being with small kids 24/7 is quite draining for many women. But amazing childcare and they were never off my mind, while working. But my OH said same. So I'm not arguing that women shouldn't work when they become mothers, but that motherhood and it various choices should be supported. And so should fatherhood 😁

Could anyone well-read on here enlighten us on what radical feminism has to say about breastfeeding?

in part backlash was through the inability to bring men into the conversation in a way that the sexes could understand each other rather than blame each other.

Joody – this is interesting can you elaborate on this? I also feel that we came closer to equal but then regressed due to 1) division in feminism and unintended consequences and 2) backlash from men as you say.

Re the unintended consequences of feminism, this brought division between women especially regarding motherhood as in Bernard’s points. Second and third wave feminism was about behaving like a man, getting into the workplace, having sex like a man etc, which leads to “lean in” where women can’t just be, in a nurturing state with a newborn, but have to be ambitious in absolutely everything. Fourth wave feminism now acknowledges that men and women are different, our biology, sexuality etc and this must be respected and the dial needs to shift towards us, essentially equity rather than equality. We don’t want to emulate men; we want power and freedom on our own terms.

I see the backlash from men as being partially due to a split in public/private life, exacerbated by the internet. As a woman it feels like you are living a double life sometimes, and men only see one side. Women are free to access economic power (up until motherhood), they outperform men at university and more women are in positions of influence. There are contained boxes where sexism is understood and condemned, such as sexual harassment or condescension in the workplace and male violence against women. And yet it continues, despite encouragements to report such behaviours. Rape is essentially decriminalised. Institutions such as the police, meant to protect you, will harm you. Male MPs might discuss VAWG one day then next day they’ll be watching porn in the chambers. Porn’s ubiquity has shaped a generation of male and female sexuality which subordinates women. Both men and women struggle to understand a healthy female sexuality because it is not represented anywhere.

Feminists have always been able to connect the dots but are often not listened to. So I’m not sure that it’s their inability to bring men into the conversation so much as men’s unwillingness to listen, especially because they see women as already having enough (in public life). They don’t want to give us more, even though it will benefit them because feminism improves the sex relations.

Basically misogyny is more condemned in public life yet prolific in private life.

I love these posts - wish our forum had an easy way of showing that.

Often people say stuff that sounds a bit naive to me, when they suggest to meet up “it will give you a chance to get a break from your family” and I quietly think “I didn’t give birth to and raise my children to not be with them”. I love spending time with them and separation from them feels wrong and unnatural.

yep. I felt this way pretty much until my kids were 4/5 and I remember feeling like a sap or like there was something wrong with me

I didn’t always enjoy the feeling, but the fact is I never felt happy away from my children when they were small, no matter what how ‘fun’ the thing I was doing was (I didn’t always love being with them either mind you!)

I worked because i felt that me being financially independent kept my children safer but I didn’t like it

I feel exactly the same way.

Both the best times of my life and the worst times of my life have been directly related to being a mother.

My children have extended the scale I use to measure my experiences and my emotions in both directions.

That doesn’t mean I have any negative judgement towards women that have chosen to be childfree or that I am unable to sympathise with women who have had motherhood denied them via infertility, disability or serious illness.

I never wanted babies, never played with baby dolls… but the death of a friend coinciding with an unplanned pregnancy made me reevaluate and well, that reevaluation is now 22, almost as old as I was when he was born.

@ResisterRex and@EndlessTea I agree. For me it is the word that is never used in academic discussion which is love. Caring for somebody else more than yourself. A hugely powerful thing that can only work to the benefit of societies.

I think where in our recent past we have gone wrong is in promoting this as the only way to feel whole. It isn't, there are many ways. They should all be valued.

If we don't promote that idea then we have the problem of people who can't have kids wanting to use surrogates etc and again that primal bond is lost. I think the primal bond matters to human beings and to how we feel psychologically and optimally socieities would support that, while recognising that there is never only one single way that suits every situation.

Anyone watched Happy Valley recently 😁

Yes.

For me, without a doubt, procreation, motherhood, etc has been the most deeply ‘right-feeling’ thing in my life. Beforehand, I had this gnawing feeling of emptiness and dissatisfaction, which I think became actual depression at one point. “What’s the point in anything? The world’s going to shit.”. I became a mother by an unplanned pregnancy, and I was so surprised that I experienced this powerful, exquisite, inner-peace, once that baby arrived. The void within had been filled by the most miraculous and wonderful thing. Yes it was hard, fucking work and relentless, but I still have that inner feeling, unlike anything else.

I am very aware I have inhibited myself from speaking about something so beautiful and wonderful in my life, because I know a lot of women who have either struggled to conceive, haven’t met the right man, or are lesbians and I don’t want to rub their noses in it. Often people say stuff that sounds a bit naive to me, when they suggest to meet up “it will give you a chance to get a break from your family” and I quietly think “I didn’t give birth to and raise my children to not be with them”. I love spending time with them and separation from them feels wrong and unnatural.

I really do think there needs to be more positive press about motherhood, so women don’t leave it so late and end up childless when they don’t want to be.

yup - completely agree

I agree with this. And unless I've understood what it means, I don't regard this as "biological essentialism" but simply reality.

Unless you've birthed a baby, you can't understand it. Just like I can't understand becoming a father and watching my wife give birth. Just like I can't understand adopting. I can listen and empathise, and try to take information on board but no, I obviously can't understand it because I haven't experienced it. And I don't see why anyone who's had those experiences should somehow apologise for them or pretend others can understand them just to what? Be polite? Be inclusive? All the other equality groups don't apologise for saying "you can learn but you can't truly understand".

In fact - and again unless I have misunderstood it - it feels like this new term of "bio essentialism" is both a distraction and a slur. I see it being used when it's important to acknowledge that sex matters as a way of smearing women for not including males. So that's why I think that.

It’s the difference between saying that having children and diverting time, effort and resources to them is a good thing, and saying because it’s a good thing every woman should do it

the fact that in the past many men and women who really didn’t want children were pushed into doing it resulted in a great deal of unhappiness

there are many different ways to be a happy and productive human

@BernardBlacksMolluscs agree. I think my OH would also say having and raising my children is the most significant act in my life. It defines me and has made me a different person

This thread has looked at historical models and surmises - in a fascinating way. If we go to basics, as mammals our biological function is to reproduce. So perhaps not suprising that it feels significant. I know this will be called bioessentialist or something like that. I am not arguing that it is the only way to feel significant or that it should be in a modern society.

But it needs valuing or we are into Handmaid's Tale territory.

it probably a very simplistic view but someone said upthread that the caring work women do is not valued and I do think that’s the heart of the problem. It’s even talked down by some feminists for heaven’s sake (domesticated zombies and so on)

I think it can boil down to women especially feeling that others making a different choice to them is implicit criticism of their own choices (you see it very starkly wrt breast/bottle feeding conversations)

so for me, giving birth to and raising my children is the most significant act in my life. It defines me and has made me a different person

others who do not have children may see this as criticism of their choices and lash out.

but creating and caring for the next generation is important. We shouldn’t dismiss it because talking about it makes some people uncomfortable