Maya’s response to Radical Notion’s GC divisions

I really haven't got the energy to spare for all the theorising and who is purer than who, and it's unbelievably boring anyway.

Men out of women's spaces. Right now, no time nor energy nor interest to spare for anything else.

Agreed. I think Maya has teased out the philosophical differences between the theorists and the mumsnet feminists, of which I am definitely one. Interested in patterns, ideas and science, political theories not so much.

As the kids say, them is very ‘extra’.

@Delphinium20

I agree with that sentiment, but she didn't say that. I think she's saying that we should have the choice (as a tool for activism) to mock the ridiculous and perverted versions some males exhibit. And that women shouldn't be criticized for choosing to mock some men if they feel it will move the needle forward.

You're right. Thank you!

WTF??

How can we be expected not to mock this?

Seriously? This was Smith’s red carpet arrival at the Grammies!

Them accessorised with extra humans ffs!

(Finally justifying a plural pronoun, I guess? 🤣)

@EndlessTea sorry, I was going to quote you on Emperor's Clothing in my Harry vs Sam thing. You're right about that sense of relief.

I saw a meme on the Grammys comparing Harry Styles's silver costume to Sam Smith's similar costume. It was mocking Sam Smith for "not wearing it well." While it might be mean, it's certainly falls under this category of "emperor's clothing." Harry is very attractive and acknowledges his manhood, and can pull off wild clothing and still look hot. Sam Smith just looks confused, pudgy and ridiculous. While the meme could be seen as a bit unfair (Styles is obviously genetically blessed), Sam Smith has chosen an identity that MUST NOT BE MOCKED. Everyone sees that Smith and Styles are wearing the same thing but only one of them looks good in it. The other is only getting praise because of an identity, not a quality.

It's why I often feel there's a subconscious drive behind the #bekind crowd which feels like self-preservation.

Yep. I think it’s an extension on fight or flight.

Freeze or fawn.

God I wish Maya had just done that article as a post on the other thread!!

Hello fellow wifey!

You know at some point Nigel is going to discover he's a mumsnet husband of many.

How will he cope? Poor lamb.

I sometimes think it is like the boy pointing out the Emperor is naked, then everyone falls about laughing. A large part of it is relief. Laughing because you don’t have to pretend that something utterly ridiculous is dignified and worthy of deference any more.

Mocking perverts can rob them of their power, but, as many women know intuitively, it can backfire into violence. It's why I often feel there's a subconscious drive behind the #bekind crowd which feels like self-preservation. As a feminist leader, I'd hesitate to tell young women to "poke the beast" because I fear for their safety.

Again, really wish MM, KJK, Maya, RN, WDI, WP etc would hold a leadership summit and pool their resources. Show us that their divisions are smaller than our big agreements.

I can't help but read some of Maya's speech as defensive- and who can blame her-she's as human as the rest of us! But, still, there should be more olive branches among us than divisors.

I don't think she's saying that. I think she's saying that she doesn't think any group of people should be venerated to the extent they are never mocked.

I agree with that sentiment, but she didn't say that. I think she's saying that we should have the choice (as a tool for activism) to mock the ridiculous and perverted versions some males exhibit. And that women shouldn't be criticized for choosing to mock some men if they feel it will move the needle forward.

Again, not saying I disagree with that as a tool, as Maya said, sometimes it's not prudent nor right for a situation, but I think she and JCJ disagree on this as a tactic.

I agree. It’s not inherent, but it’s definitely there.

Leaving aside traditional clothing originating from nations and cultures outside of the UK, (which is male clothing anyway, even if it doesn’t have two separate legs in the bottom half) and there is, imo, 3 types of motivation for males to wear women’s clothing.

It might seem like a fag paper of a distinction but it really isn’t.

There is a stylishly non-conforming motive (like JCJ’s beloved Prince)
There is a sensory driven, I don’t give a stuff for societal conventions motive (often comes with a ND and can be very specific re: fabrics and colours)

And there is the disquieting, radar pinging ‘gender euphoria’ fetishy motive.

Trying to purposefully shut down that radar ping will put us and our daughters in danger and I’m horrified that a REAL FEMINIST would suggest it.

Possibly even a grim horrendous bigoted shire wife of Nigel Farage! Like me!

Agreed - I'll take impact, I don't need to agree with anyone's politics/religion/etc in order to work with them on protecting women's rights against the trans lobby.

I don't think she's saying that. I think she's saying that she doesn't think any group of people should be venerated to the extent they are never mocked.

In any event, identifying as trans is not biological like height or disability is. We have been told time and again that it's not a medical condition so should be removed from the DSM.

I think they usually look ridiculous. Especially if they imagine themselves to look feminine. Obviously a kilt or a kanga might technically be skirts, but they are not women’s clothes, so they don’t make men look ridiculous. Also if a man is wearing something like a woman’s cut of jeans, you might not notice. It’s the whole caboodle. When you can tell a man is dizzy and actively turned-on because he is wearing nail polish and bangles in public - you definitely sense something is off.

Another thing, as a woman, I know what clothes do and do not suit me, or which would be too sexualised to be appropriate. Blokes in women’s clothes do not think like that.

Excellent.

Fair summary.

It’s also got some stuff about crocheting a Union Jack thong for Nigel Farage.

And I don't think men in women's clothes are inherently funny or ridiculous.
Yes and no. Some men come from cultures where men wear dresses and skirts. Man-shaped dresses and skirts. And that's fine.
It's when men-shaped men wear women-shaped clothes that it goes wrong.

Worse!

If Maya has come within wang baton distance of the heritage foundation, she must be some sort of Trump Supremacist!

😱😱😱

I pretty much agree with all of that.