Navigating ‘school gates’ conversations with other parents

The posters saying it's not an appropriate subject for the school gates...who decides which subjects are appropriate? If the subject involves someone's concern for their child or the children of the school, why is it not appropriate? Where do these conversations then supposedly take place? In hushed tones, behind closed doors with only your closest confidantes? How is that effective for your child?

….exists in an echo chamber, which is why the QT audience were called a lynch mob.

No bigotry in your question OP. You're a mother concerned about your child and their peers. Safeguarding our children is what we do. Removing safeguarding from children and attempting to bully others into doing the same seems to be a feature rather than a bug of this queer theory steeped adult ideology.
Good to see so many nuanced and thoughtful posts.

I always think questions that promote critical thinking rather than declarations are the way to go.

"no one should have to wear clothes they aren't comfortable with, but loads of women aren't into sexy underwear and high heeled shoes or whatever. I think it's important to give teenage girls that they don't have to be especially or particularly feminine, sexualised or submissive feeling to be a woman. Otherwise it's a massive regression right?"

but think you should be able to be considered as the opposite sex

Why?

Why should anybody have the right to control other people's thoughts?

"I don't think it's kind to promise a child something they cannot have."

Thanks @JellySaurus, I think this is a very good approach, as it forces you (them) to snap out of the brainless 'be kind' frame of mind and back into reality.

Quite simply pointing out thay humans cant actually change sex is a good one

Or innocently speaking about a detransitioner

Himdia, is shadowing this thread on her Twitter account.

Picking up on women’s naivety point I totally agree. Dh default position on other men is to be cynical about their motives until proved otherwise. So often women gush “he’s lovely” and the men eye roll and exchange glances as they know what some men are really like when women aren’t around.

@thedankness I agree. But this but think you should be able to be considered as the opposite sex: this is where the debate lies.

imposes upon kids the necessity of not naming what they see and introducing a confusion. In a group of teens if you have 9 people, 2 are gender questioning, there is no option in that group currently for the 7 others not to affirm them or as I see it, not to lie. The rights of the 7 are subsumed under the rights of the 2. I think when people really drill down into the debate it does mean one group of people assert their view of reality over another group.

The real debate is whether we are allowed to not consider people as the opposite sex. And how we educate very young children to understand that. I really recommend listening to that Triggernometry podcast, it is illuminating.

I suggest one tool in the toolbox analogy is being surprised, curious and asking 'why do you think that' kind of questions about the vacuous statements coming out of people's mouths. This helps because:

1. It disrupts the collective narrative that this is the mainstream view and we all think the same
2. It encourages a deeper level of engagement with the subject matter, ideally prompting someone to think about why they think the things they do

I do think we should be able to say outright that you can't change sex, and treat anyone who thinks you can with the same incredulity as flat-earthers. However most people know that you can't actually change sex but think you should be able to be considered as the opposite sex: this is where the debate lies.

And yeah, women have been totally captured by the ideology. Women are generally more empathetic and can be incredibly naive at times. Men know the nature of other men. I see more she/her pronouns floating around than he/him.

I think alot of Women end up saying nothing because they can't find 'the right words' or 'the right way' to say what they think. Let's not put any more pressure on women to be perfect in order not to offend people or say the wrong thing. This just ends up silencing women. Just say what you feel needs to be said. You can elaborate when you can. Don't fear being labelled a bigot or term or whatever. Just bloody move forward and say it.

I would definitely keep it light and positive where possible "isn't it great that boy can have long hair and play My Little Ponies these days, and girls can play football, without anyone having a problem with it" rather than "we shouldn't validate stereotypes".
When puberty blockers came up I'd have probably agreed and said oh it's so important that children can explore this stuff and go through phases without being labelled or put in boxes.
Rather than making really challenging or controversial statements like "men can't change sex" or "transwomen are male", that will just make people think you are a transphobe or bigot, it's easier to ask questions to find common ground - "my worry is just men pretending to identify as women to access women's refuges or prisons". No one's going to argue with that.

@AlexandriasWindmill It is also women who have remained silent and encouraged the silence of others. Women who have thoughtlessly repeated and promoted the thought terminating cliche that the slur "transphobia" has become. Women who have silenced others with the "be kind" mantra which is anything but kind if it involves enforced lying.

And quite often it is men who have stood beside women who have tried to stand up to that and supported those women. This is about ideas. When I say "we", I suppose a mean a collective "we", in other words our societies in the UK. I mean parents.

What a good and important thread

Isn't it just. I'll be coming back to this thread, I am going to pull out the useful phrases and rehearse them in my head, I'm not even joking. It's so important than we have the right tools to get people thinking about this.

I 'challenged' a similar conversation by saying "I don't think it's kind to promise a child something they cannot have." This puzzled the others and allowed me to mention the impossibility of changing sex, the inevitability of puberty, the harms of the drug treatments etc. Not all in one go, but in response to their statements and questions.

Most parents of young children are coming at it from the Being Kind perspective. That's the narrative that must be challenged. We need to genuinely be kind to children.

'We' haven't allowed a culture of silence around this. It is women (especially those who met on MN) who have been campaigning on this for years. It is women who have established all the groups across the country who are pushing research, challenging and changing policy in sports/universities/healthcare. It is because of women that the UK is leading the pushback against this ideology.

So yy I doubt the motivation of anyone that would try to put this complete shitshow back on to women because women didn't speak loudly enough. That's not where the blame lies. Women have been speaking at all volumes in lots of different places to get us to the point where we have the Cass Report; the Forstater case; the Sanchez case; the current spotlight on trans rapists. It's because of women that certain schools no longer have mixed toilets. Any progress we have made is because of women.

What a good and important thread. Spudina highlights the problems. The silencing and subsequent bullying of anyone who tries to centre children's safety rather than this adult ideology. This must change and it's important that we think through all the numerous tools for doing this.

Maybe something like " I'm sure I read something about that recently? The Cass Review from the NHS? I'll have to google it to remind myself"

People fall out big time over this issue, with their closest friends, with their family, in my case with my brother.

It's sad but true that the majority of people are completely ignorant on this subject other than believing the standard myths "trans kids will kill themselves if they aren't validated" "trans women are women". Anyone who thinks differently is a bigot. because this is what we've all been bombarded with for so long.

The tide will turn, I'm sure of it, it's happening as we speak but in the meanwhile, it's really not an appropriate school gates or workplace conversation. If you say one wrong thing, people can quickly get the wrong impression and will label you a "Terf" and to them, a "Terf" is someone who wants to exterminate trans people out of existence. Not a considerate mum type of person.

@Alexandernevermind I replied to you in error - my apology. I was responding to @AlexandriasWindmill. And I am indeed posting in anger. Sometimes I don't want to sit on that rage, because I find the situation we have gotten to unbelieveable.

In reality, and calmly viewed, I do agree there are different tools for different jobs actually. The trick is deciding which to use when. My argument is that subtlety can be the easy way but is isn't always the most courageous.

@Alexandernevermind I am aware of the tone of my posts and they come from exasperation in part due to the failure of adults to safeguard children. I am very angry about it. I take your point however, about effective influencing.

However, we have allowed a culture of silence around this by our inability to find the perfect words and situations to challenge. Sometimes incredulity is absolutely the right thing.

In any case, several parents have approached me because I have not been quiet on the subject. Sometimes people need a hammer.

You have to challenge effectively - a clumsy statement to people you don't know has somehow reinforced the idea that concerns are homophobic. That wasn't the best outcome.

This is a very good point.

I agree that challenging where effective and appropriate is correct. However, a casual conversation at the school gates, without enough time to go into depth, is not it.

I also think for any of our views to be taken on board, a contract of trust and believability needs to be established. We have this, for example, with friends, family and sometimes work colleagues. You won't automatically have it with parents of your DC's school friends. Therefore as correct as you may be, it's unlikely your views will get traction.

I'd wait & see, and when you have firmer friendships, then discuss it.

Nobody suggested going along with bad ideas. Effective intervention gets results. Badly timed 'attitude' (you might want to read your posts back) alienates people and can feed into negative perceptions of the issues eg you're homophobic.
If you only have a hammer, everything is a nail. If you have a full toolbox, you choose the correct tool. The way to intervene with parents who know NB DCs is different from how you write to an MP is different from how you approach an HT.
Women have been standing up on these issues for years.

I've always told my now teens to be who they want to be, date who they want to date and not to put a label on it. I've taught them about sex based rights and the importance of respect for others. It kind of covers everything.