What's the problem with FiLiA?

It is beyond the pale to say that about transwidows Sappho to try to score a point.

You are the one here thinking people are homophobic if they don’t get out the pom-poms and sing “ra ra ra” at your ethically dubious sense of entitlement to use men’s bodies.

Given I've never said that, Sappho your post is completely out of order.

It seems to me, @SapphosRock that you are in denial about where sperm comes from. That you inhabit some kind of fantasy that two women are able to make a baby together, no one else required, just the two of you, just like straight couples.

Why is it offensive to say lesbians should make their own arrangements to have a baby?

Tinsel, it's the realisation that a group of women you assumed were allies are not allies.

Telling lesbians they should should find a man to conceive with is as offensive as telling straight women to celebrate their husbands wearing women's clothes.

Yeah but why?

Why though?

Why?

Why, mummy, why?

This reminds me of when DD went through her relentless questions stage.

What are your views on single heterosexual women using IVF?

I thought it was about FILIA.

It is ‘equal’ if lesbians, like heterosexual couples, use ‘assisted conception’ as a last resort, because of difficulty conceiving after a concerted period of trying, without assistance.

That’s not what is being suggested. Equality is not being suggested.

I agree that no one has a right to a child. Such a thing does not exist. But this is not about the right to a child, it's about should assisted conception be available to m/f couples but not Lesbian couples.

Are you really unable to foresee the potential problems with 'fertility equality rights'?

Dressing it up in the discourse of human rights is lazy thinking.

Nobody should have the right to have a child.

That's not how rational debate works TooBigForMyBoots

You say a right to children for all. Does that include heterosexual couples? So no assisted conception for m/f couples because it leads to assisted conception for Lesbian couples which then leads to surrogacy?

I'm not expressing an opinion either way, I'm saying if you use an argument about rights, you need to think through what the consequences of that argument might be.

So you oppose assisted conception, IVF for all women TinselAngel?

It's entirely feminist to think through what the consequences of "a right to children for all" might be for women- eg via a right to surrogacy for men.

So gay women should not have the same rights as heterosexual sexual women because of men? What type of feminism is that?

It was the left that fought and won children's rights. Do not try and rewrite history here.
It is the left and specifically left wing feminists who exposed the prevalence of childhood sexual abuse, who fought against corporal punishment in schools, who fought for smacking to be banned and children's feelings and needs to be taken seriously.

If the left keeps pretending that the human rights of children are just an old fashioned, conservative policy they are going to hand the right wing an easy win (at a time when the right wing aren’t easily winning on anything else).

Maybe Sappho will only see it when surrogates start being conscripted for gay men, and the baby police knock on her door.

Yet again, Sapphos, you are failing to see the bigger picture of what you are arguing for. You did it with 'trans rights' before, failed to see the potential consequences of what you were arguing for until, when it finally impacted you personally, you had your 'gender critical' epiphany.

Concerns about the potential implications of 'equal fertility rights' is not a right-wing thing, it's a children's rights thing. This isn't about you, it's a bigger picture thing, and your history shows you're not that great at bigger picture stuff.

Is there a phrase for the opposite of forced teaming, when you're teaming people falsely with somebody else? Maybe it's just "smearing"?

"Defy logic or you're being right wing and your friends at FILIA will shun you next year!"

Like it or not, arguments against lesbians (and indeed trans men) conceiving using donor conception are traditionally conservative, right wing arguments which will dismay the predominantly liberal, left leaning, socialist attendees of FiLia.

10 years on now lesbians have finally secured fertility equality some people are claiming it will pave the way for surrogacy to become legal.
That's because if you use the "equality" argument for lesbians having a right to children, logically that extends to gay men.