What's the problem with FiLiA?

Nobody should have a right to surrogacy.

Surrogacy is exploiting a woman's body. All pregnancies are risky and unpredictable. The baby will be separated from his/her mother. The emotional impact of this separation is negative for mother and baby.

It's surprising that anyone on a feminist board would view surrogacy as comparable to sperm donation which does not have any of the same risks for men or the potential to exploit men and does not mean the child is separated from its mother.

Surrogacy and sperm donation are as far apart as prostitution and consensual sex IMO.

All sperm donors (in the UK) must be traceable and the child will always have the option to contact their donor once they are 18. Children conceived from heterosexual one night stands or times when the parents lose contact do not have this option.

Bearing all of the above in mind, I believe that as the NHS offer's heterosexual couples with male factor infertility IUI and IVF using donor sperm then lesbians should be offered this too.

The NHS does not offer surrogacy to anyone and there is no plan for this to change.

I don't care what anyone's sexuality is wrt to NHS Fertility Services. What I do care about is:

1. that the NHS is supposed to serve people with health problems, in this case "infertility", although it is also debatable whether the thwarted desire to give birth or pass on one's genes should be remedied by provision of NHS-funded fertility services. Arguments about the possible health risks to fertile adults of arrangements other than an NHS Fertility Service are spurious. There are plenty of providers outside the NHS supplying medical and technological solutions in accordance with current regulations and "alternative" arrangements are as old as the hills.

2. children. As a PP has mentioned, there is research indicating that "children raised by same-sex parents from birth perform better than children raised by different-sex parents in both primary and secondary education". and "we conclude that children raised by same-sex parents are likely to perform at least as well as (if not better than) children raised by different-sex parents in school.". The researchers note that "Our results mostly support the hypothesis that, given the time-consuming and costly procedures for same-sex couples to obtain children, same-sex parents typically have higher socioeconomic status resulting in better school outcomes. Nonetheless, when we control for a range of socioeconomic factors, the significantly positive association does not entirely disappear."

School Outcomes of Children Raised by Same-Sex Parents: Evidence from Administrative Panel Data, 2020
journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0003122420957249

• School outcomes are not everything though.
• If same-sex parents "typically have higher socioeconomic status" then they should typically be in a better financial position to avail themselves of fertility services outside the NHS.
• the research included adopted children and where adoption was not at birth the effect was not as strong.

Adoptions fall by 62% as IVF success rises
2018
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46081726

Don't even get me started on "surrogacy" - whatever the sexuality of those who should properly be referred to as the "surrogate parents", ie. the baby-buyers:

web.archive.org/web/20210404131650/threadreaderapp.com/thread/1378661064339042306.html

It is manipulative and disgusting to suggest that "homophobia" and/or"lesbophobia" and/or "transphobia" and/or "religion" is the "real" motivation for reasoned objections to:

• fertility services per se or
• fertility services using donor gametes or
• fertility services on the NHS or
• fertility services on the NHS for fertile individuals/couples

However, if that is the conclusion of some Filia organisers and attendees and it naturally put them at odds with other attendees then maybe it would be better for Filia to encourage focus on points of agreement in the greater cause rather than divisive issues?

What about gay man equality?

Gay men should have equal rights to surrogacy as heterosexual men in a relationship have to surrogacy.

Lesbian equality with heterosexual couples viz a viz reproduction can't really be achieved, can it? 'Cos biology.

Issues about access to fertility services, when and under what conditions are just that - should access to service be based on equality between heterosexual and lesbian women?

I'm not sure that anyone is arguing that heterosexual women should have earlier/more access to fertility services (although I may have missed some posts about this).

I think posters are right when they say abstract principles of 'lesbian equality' around reproduction do inevitably lead to 'what about gay men equality?' and make it very difficult to draw a hard line between fertility intervention and surrogacy because it does get into 'right to a child' territory.

Quite

I wish you'd pay us the same compliment then.

*are equally able

This link suggests that lesbians are get access to fertility treatment if they cannot naturally conceive.

You have been arguing for something different.

You have been arguing that lesbians should be able to use fertility services instead of making their own arrangements with a man.

That's very flattering Tinsel, but I'm pretty sure my new soc fem friends are able to form their own opinions without any influence from me.

And I haven't read the middle of the thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned , but the only FILIA related row I've seen concerning lesbians (other than the bouncer incident) is Belstaffie objecting to FILIA platforming Political Lesbians, which she sees as insulting to "real" lesbians

I wonder Sappho if you're trying to force team your new soc fems friends on this issue as much as you are us.

I mean this, and if lesbians receiving equal rights to heterosexual couples scares you I am not sorry www.hrw.org/news/2022/09/22/england-end-lbq-discrimination-access-fertility-services

I wasn't aware that a right to have children for all, was a common soc fem position but I'm happy to see evidence to the contrary.

I am now officially scared by what you mean by “rights” Sappho.

I don't think it is distracting from the reality, it is coming from a position of the soc fems (disagree with elitist) who are dismayed that some of the activism from grassroots GCs oppose the rights of lesbian women.

FiLia of all places should be a safe and supportive space for lesbians.

There is the other issue of aligning with the far right vs ideological purity (also summarised for brevity) which has been rumbling on.

In saying this “the realisation that a group of women you assumed were allies are not allies” Sappho is engaging in forced teaming.

The whole idea of “allies” is tribalist. Denouncing people as ‘not allies’ because you disagree with the line they take on something, is authoritarian.

TAs have got sooo much mileage out of forced ‘allyship’. I’d be happy to never hear the word ‘ally’ again.

I also resent the TRA like argument of "If you think x you must think y and OH MY GOD YOU THINK Z DON'T YOU YOU RIGHT WING BIGOT!"

Also it feels Sappho as if you are trying to distract from the reality of what is causing division (which could be summarised as elitist soc fems v grass roots GCers, but this is an over simplification for brevity) by force teaming us to support your view of fertility "equality".

Apologies Tinsel, you are right that was unnecessary.

I understand the splits in the movement, Sappho, after all I've been at this a lot longer than you have.

I wouldn't agree on your reasoning behind why they've happened but I've made no mention of that on this thread at all. The only thing I have said is that if you start using arguments based on a notion of equality, you have to consider where that argument logically takes you and in particular whether it might end up being to the detriment of another group of women.

I'm really not sure why you feel the need to bring my relationship history into it.

I didn't say it though.

You want to understand why some women at FiLia have beef each other? It is because groups of women attending FiLia hold beliefs that other groups of women at FiLiA find hurtful and offensive.

If you really want to understand the other point of view then put yourself in the shoes of women who are being attacked by their supposed allies.

Tinsel I notice a lot of muddled, illogical thinking. If anything Sappho should be lashing out at me. I only joined this thread because she was implying the I am ‘legion’ and I wanted to own my opinions as mine alone.

@SapphosRock I am the one you should be giving your crap to, not Tinsel.

It’s just nasty Tinsel. You have been really generous with your time and sharing your life, which means we know your pain. Sappho just picked on you because you are an easy target in that area. She lashed out at you. It was spiteful and totally uncalled for.

I don't even see how the situations are comparable "other people are saying something that I find hurtful, so I'm going to say something that you (not one of those people) will find hurtful."

Jesus wept Sapphos are you still on your "biology is homophobic" thing?

Yes you need a man to make a baby, or you need his sperm, anyway. That's a problem for lesbians but it's not homophobic.

Below the belt.

And completely unfair on Tinsel.

You need to stop personalising everything.