What's the problem with FiLiA?

this is not the fault of lesbians who use donor sperm.

was me quoting Sappho

Since you didn’t respond when I addressed this. I’ll C&P.

EndlessTea · Today 08:40
this is not the fault of lesbians who use donor sperm.

Anyone who uses obfuscating language like “equal fertility rights” is partially culpable for normalising and setting the stage for surrogacy for gay men in the UK.

Not all lesbians who use donor sperm call it their “equal fertility rights”, so no, it is not the fault of those women.

So I consider your straight “allies” are also culpable @SapphosRock sexual orientation is irrelevant.

So if GC women speak out against donor conception lesbians should just keep quiet to keep the peace? Just sit down and shut up?

Nope sorry, not on board with that.

You are doing your best to ensure that they do.

Lesbian mothers are not to blame for gay men buying babies. This ridiculous thought experiment is doing nothing more than blaming women for men's behaviour.

This.

That is an odd interpretation Tinsel.

However I do think there are clearly some issues where GC women are polarised and they are going to clash on some issues.

Lesbian mothers are not to blame for gay men buying babies. This ridiculous thought experiment is doing nothing more than blaming women for men's behaviour.

So now you've reverted again to not addressing the arguments people are putting forward and just railing for the lurkers.

It seems to be you Sappho who is trying to turn this into a massive issue for the "GC movement" in order to bolster up your own interests. You're trying to turn it into "Me and my perfect new (independently thinking) soc fem friends think one thing whilst all you Posie supporting Mumsnet plebs think another", and that's really not it at all, on either side.

Don’t be daft Sappho.

It’s perfectly possible to have rational objections to medical interventions without deliberately shouting those objections into the faces of those who take the opposite position (or doing the online equivalent).

eg opposing the use of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones on minors.

I just wrote a long post under that and it's not showing up.

Basically I watched the video and read the document and am horrified by what's gone on.

I just watched that video and read the whole of the attached document.

Fucking hell. Even if Kat had been violent (and she couldn't have been less confrontational if she'd tried!), having her carried out by two men was beyond unacceptable. Knowing she was having response based on her diagnosed autism and having both the men and women completely ignoring that was horrendous. Knowing her background of forced prostitution as both an adult and a child makes it actually sick. I feel really shaken from watching it.

I obviously can't verify anything reported in the document, but it certainly makes sense of the video of the volunteer being refused entry for associating with Kat. I had to replay that because I couldn't believe it was actually being said - guilty by association?! But that's exactly what happened. WTAF?! That's just batshit. Or vindictive to a psychologically disturbing degree.

I'm saddened to know that Get the L Out isn't what I thought it was. I had not realised they were political lesbians. I don't have a problem with people being political lesbians but passing themselves off as the same as lesbians, and lesbian spokeswomen, not on.

Lots of you obviously feel very strongly against fertility treatment so go and post about it on the infertility board. Tell infertile straight women that having a child is not a right and using donor gametes is morally wrong. Campaign to abolish IVF and IUI for straight couples if it bothers you so much.

But it doesn't bother you with straight couples does it? It's only a problem when it's lesbians.

This is so true.

It is dangerous for society if anyone claims a ‘right’ to another person’s body, sex organs or gametes.

No one has a ‘right’ to use another.

No there isn't. Infertility is not a sexual orientation.

As a thought experiment. If certain couples (including lesbians) are seen to have a "right" to fertility treatment including the use of donor sperm, what would happen if there was no donor sperm available because all men had decided they didn't want to donate any more? Let's say there was some proof that it was somehow a health risk to men to donate.

How would their right be fulfilled?

That's a false comparison.

The correct comparison is "everybody has a right to sex", which we do see being used for eg disabled men having a right to the services of prostituted women.

I’ve never heard this. I always saw it framed the other way around, that when the majority of women didn’t have sex outside marriage, the prostituted underclass of women was created for men who couldn’t get all the sex they want.

Nobody is saying surrogacy is lesbians fault obviously, we are warning against using the language of "rights" with regards to having children because surrogacy is where that argument will take us.

All the "but it's different!" floundering is not tackling this point.

Nobody has a right to a child.

this is not the fault of lesbians who use donor sperm.

Anyone who uses obfuscating language like “equal fertility rights” is partially culpable for normalising and setting the stage for surrogacy for gay men in the UK.

Not all lesbians who use donor sperm call it their “equal fertility rights”, so no, it is not the fault of those women.

EndlessTea it could be argued that sex outside marriage paves the way for prostitution so should we ban sex outside marriage?

Yes I have noticed gay men are renting wombs and it is appalling and a feminist issue but this is not the fault of lesbians who use donor sperm.

That would be like saying 'have you seen all these people having consensual sex? It's not surprising that men are now using prostitutes'

Here is the way it will go, if we don’t do something about it.

First commercial surrogacy is being normalised.

Then it will be legalised.

Then it will be considered essential “equal fertility rights” for homosexuals.

The it will be demanded on the NHS.

Sappho have you not noticed that many gay men are now purchasing babies through surrogacy, and although it’s not provided by the NHS, they do feel entitled to rent women and buy babies as part of their ‘equal fertility rights’? And believe that only homophobes could object?

Commercial surrogacy isn’t even legal in this country, yet it is being done brazenly.

No I'm not.

As a PP posted out, if surrogacy was offered to heterosexual couples on the NHS there would be an argument for gay couples to be offered this too. But it isn't and never will be.

There is a valid argument for lesbians to receive donor insemination and therefore receive equality with straight couples with male factor infertility.

Sappho you are the one using “equal fertility rights” as a catch-all to include a whole lot of dubious stuff. This catch-all term also includes surrogacy for gay men.

The arguments are identical.

Gay men equally have the same “right” to a family/to become parents as “straight” men.

And just like women not producing sperm in same-sex female couples is framed as a “fertility issue” in this catch-all, so is men not producing eggs, or not having wombs, is a “fertility issue” for male same-sex couples.