I loved the videos too!

No idea what a Shire Wife is, is it an English thing?

Ooh, loving the tap dancing videos! Thanks, Nicola.

Spiked and the far left-right wherever you mark it libertarian cult in general are not pro-woman. A stopped clock tells the right time twice a day and I’ll take any small wins. This argument being made is good because some Spiked people have been quite influential on Johnsonian Toryism.

I’m also happy to hear men saying the right things on this subject because male voices cut through to other men, in a way women’s voices don’t always do (NAMALT).

But the politics of Spiked is not pro women on other issues though. I get a sense of a concern about men doing masculinity appropriately, above a sense of a serious premise of women as people with rights. They don’t seem to want to see the modern reality of patriarchy for women. Spiked’s articles on sexual assault and rape issues are dreadful.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · Yesterday 20:46

And perhaps you could also agree that teenagers are full of silly ideas, can easily fall in with all sorts of bad people, and don’t have any power over the adults in their social circles?

Aged 14, at the height of the Miner's Strike, I joined Socialist worker. I left at 16 and my views have mellowed now; for example, I no longer think that shooting the Royal Family and Tories is the best solution for this country's ills.

In fact, I think that it would be a Very Bad Thing.

Either way, you must know that the question 'are these people really our friends' is quite a current one in GC circles

There's no "our". Not interested in reading from a prescribed list, I am quite capable of reading the thoughts of people I disagree with, unlike seemingly many are on this side of this argument, and the other side.

10/10 nice, pure Real Feminism.

This. They just can't help themselves.

People whose lives permit them the luxury of writing little jargon sodden essays about theory while sneering at those whose lived reality they despise are so dull. And irrelevant.

I completely agree, @OneLongSmorgasbord

I think some people need to realise that this is bigger than feminism now.
The feminists were absolutely the first ones to raise the alarm and get the news out but it's not just going to stay in feminist circles. It needs to get out into the mainstream if there's any chance of stopping the juggernaut.
More people are realising what's happening and are going to want their say on it and there's a good chance you're not going to like/agree with them on lots of other things. And that's OK.

It amazes that people will claim that people can change sex, but can't change their opinions on something.

If more and more people (of whatever political leaning) are taking up a critical view towards trans rights, then isn't that a good thing?

The TRA movement seeks to gain political consensus and have agreement across the board on the issue. The TRA movement also seek to sow division in the GC movement.

And she did it in

👠 👠

Only in the circles you move in.

Here people have become a bit meh about the purity of people's past. Hell I rather frighteningly found myself in agreement with Trump the other day. Now Trump is not a person any sane person would want as a bed fellow, but one of the mysteries of life is that sometimes even the most vile of people have the same opinion as you!

Shit happens I move on.

sigh
I’m so sick of the purity spiral. It causes nothing but division and feeds into the us versus them wars. Surely we should be trying to find common ground and then build on that dialogue to foster a better understanding between people.

There are a lot of people who agree that sex matters and that people can’t change their sex. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with anything or everything else they say and do. There’s no one that I completely agree with about everything. DH and I are very similar politically, but he likes psychedelic trance and I think it’s noisy shit. Hell, I don’t even agree with myself. Over the years, I’ve learned and grown as a person so I don’t hold all the same opinions that I did 10 or 20 years ago. At one point, I thought a perm was a good idea. I learned.

Play the ball not the wo/man. If you don’t have an actual argument about the article, I’m not interested in your opinion.

Ha me too!

I once caught, by sheer happenstance, Caitlyn Jenner being interviewed by Mrs Brown. Which, despite my personal views on gender identity, and indeed Mrs Brown's Boys, was quite a thing of joy.

@nepeta Makes sense. For my part, I’ll be taking a stand if and when I face gender stuff either at my children’s schools or at my workplace. Thanks to this forum I know where to look for resources and further help.

@WinterDeWinter Shire wives has a Tolkien feel to it, so I’ll keep it.
And ofc anyone who unironically thinks in terms of ‘provincialists’ and ‘metropolitan intellectuals’, is to be gently led aside and given hot chocolate.

My feelings about someone do not affect whether or not I agree or disagree with them: I can like someone but disagree with what they say sometimes. Or dislike them and agree with what they say sometimes.

To address your question would probably take several long threads on Mn 🙂, simply because it would be crucial to discuss which principles each discussion participant finds non-negotiable and which might be open to compromises etc.

But for this particular topic my own belief is that of many politicians who work together on some issues with members of other parties but fight them about other issues, always keeping in mind what connects and what separates the parties. In other words, I think that if you believe this is a fight you wish to be part of then take part. There will always be people who disagree with you (or anyone), so wanting wholesale acceptance probably would disappoint you.

But if I thought about this longer I might change my mind as I didn't get enough sleep last night. So take this as a first draft.

😁@7Worfs

just to clarify, I was mocking your Tory-ness, not your provincialism or your heterosexuality. Wouldn’t dream of it. 😄

right I really am off now. Thanks for the discourse, sorry it got heated.

I liked being called a Shire wife.

I didn't say 'head girls of feminism'. I just said head girls. Like at, I dunno, Downe House.

I didn't say Brendan O'Neill was exactly the same - I said he's stayed with a very dodgy organisation which 'changes its mind' as strategy.

I'm sorry, though, that I called you Shire Wives. That was beneath me.

Good night - despite disagreeing with you I appreciate the civil tone and hope you sleep well (I won’t - baby attached to me). Very refreshing in comparison to the open hatred of AIBU 👀
And to your remark about being here only for the gender wars and not the feminism - that’s because this is the containment area as set up by MN.

Now that there, is proper DARVO.

We can’t simultaneously be the Head Girls of Feminism whilst also being ‘here for the gender-criticism but not for the feminism’.

But then you’ve also said Brendan O’Neill is exactly the same as he was a teenager whilst also being likely to change his mind on sex being binary and immutable any minute now

Plus a nice dig at all the boring old married heterosexual women who don’t live in big cities to finish 🥇

10/10 nice, pure Real Feminism.

You?

Right, my lovely Shire wives, I'm orf to bed. Sleep tight!